#003: Going Light with Joe Hollier – Why the Light Phone Founder Ditched His Smartphones for Privacy & Peace of Mind

Joe (00:02)

at the time, Tim Cook had been talking a lot about

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smartphone abuse of overusing smartphones, particularly obviously the iPhone. he was saying things like, if You shouldn't be looking at the phone more than someone else's eyes or, we don't want you always on the phone. And so all of these messages he was saying felt like we were speaking the same language.

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But obviously when it came to actually implementing changes, there wasn't any real meaningful changes to take that

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Siara (00:21)

Mm-hmm.

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Joe (00:28)

you know, you can't really have a an argument over text message on the light phone. It's just too slow you know, there's no paragraphs on the Light Phone? no, no, I'd be like six texts

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Siara (00:32)

You

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There's no paragraphs on the light film.

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Do you have concerns about how big tech is acting Do you think that they care about our digital well-being?

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Joe (00:46)

I don't think they care in any genuine way. No,

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Siara Singleton (00:49)

Hey, welcome back to the Log out Podcast. So I talk about screen time a lot on the show and screen time can be anything, right? Your laptops, your iPads, your TVs, but the screen I'm talking about at least 75 % of the time is this one, your smartphone. I genuinely think that these were meant to enhance our lives, but I often wonder if the modern smartphone is really a net positive for the average person. I mean, it's amazing. This is an amazing...

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device. have accomplished and witnessed some pretty cool things on here, but at the same time, when I look at some of the challenges that persist in my life, I just end up with the root being this dang phone. So naturally I have flirted with the idea of other more minimalist options, and I came across the Light Phone a few years back.

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If you haven't heard of the light phone and you happen to be watching, this is the light phone. It's super cute, super minimalistic, super small, which is kind of nice.

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If there were ever a phone built on the values of this show, log out, it would be the light phone. It's a phone that was intentionally designed to be used as little as possible. there's no scrolling, there's no social media, there's no third party apps, period. There's not even a browser on this

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It's built around the radical idea that we should be looking up from our phones more than looking at our phones.

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I just have the Light Phone 2,

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but if you're familiar with the Light Phone, then you know that the Light Phone 3 just dropped last week. And it's a big deal because this version adds a lot of highly requested features. A camera, a GPS, a more premium build in general.

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so the small group of people who are willing to go light with the Light Phone 1 and 2 just got a lot bigger. So I don't know, it doesn't feel like just a phone anymore. It's starting to feel like a movement.

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So in today's episode, we get to talk to one of the co-founders of Light, Joe Hollier,

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who is one of the most interesting people I have met this year and one of the first voices that I wanted on this show.

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of many interesting things about Joe, one of the most is that he hasn't used a smartphone in seven years. Seven years. He went completely light and never turned back.

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and he's running a full on company. So anyone who's thought about adopting, no excuses.

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could probably figure it out. He sure has. And talking to him was pretty surreal. We discussed his lifestyle without the smartphone.

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his relationship with social media beforehand. We talk about how the light phone was born and how it's evolved.

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But more than anything, if there's one part of this conversation that you should really listen to,

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it should be what Joe has to say about data privacy and how deeply third party apps are embedded into our lives. It's important to know.

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So, let's meet Joe.

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Siara (03:38)

to the Logout Podcast.

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Joe (03:40)

Thanks so much for having me.

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Siara (03:42)

I have been really looking forward to this conversation because you developed a product for a market that most entrepreneurs wouldn't even touch, smartphones. You and your co-founder invented the Light Phone

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off, do you categorize the Light Phone as a smartphone?

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Joe (03:57)

Maybe a simple phone. You know, we're definitely more called a dumb phone than a smartphone. I don't necessarily think the dumb to smart spectrum is the best choice of words, but I think in many ways it is a simplified smartphone because it tries to take the best aspects of modern technology. not, you know, let's just go back to flip phones of 2005, but in a very intentional way.

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Siara (04:02)

Mm-hmm.

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Yeah.

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Mm-hmm.

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Yeah, absolutely. I refuse to call it a dumb phone because I think the concept is just ingenious Yeah, I've been following the brand for a while and obviously I wanted to learn a little bit more about where it originated from and I saw that it was from a Google experimental incubator. Is that correct?

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Joe (04:40)

Yeah, so Google, the design team at Google had this idea, this hypothesis that designers should be at the start of companies like the founding table rather than just this kind of afterthought. And so they had a really open-ended program where they invited designers, including myself and my partner, to come and learn from tech founders, people that had just made apps, as well as, know, investors and thought leaders, and just really to learn how and why startups were built.

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and funded and to see if designers might come with a new approach that maybe had more empathy for users or just was thinking a little bit more outside the box. And obviously, Light Phone kind of was born out of this and went really outside the box compared to, you know, the kind of smartphone app ecosystem that they were interested in us exploring.

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Siara (05:28)

yeah, imagine most companies in this space design products that compete for time and attention with the objective of more screen time and more

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your background in design and art, you could have just created a minimalist, beautiful phone with a more user friendly UX aimed at frequent use, but the light phone is actually designed to be used as little as possible. So what inspired you and

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your co-founder to just go the completely opposite way.

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Joe (05:56)

Yeah, so I guess that program really was the catalyst for it in that in the program, I got to meet all of these founders who had these great noble ideas for their startups, which were mostly smartphone apps. And then we kept seeing this trend of as they would get funding from different venture capitalists, they would be aspiring for this really rapid growth and essentially morphing their business model into really just

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capturing how much time and data people were spending with their products. And so they kept saying, you know, the word sticky. If you made something that was really sticky and people kept checking and rechecking your smartphone application, well, they can make a business model from, you know, collecting all sorts of data and selling all sorts of advertising, very targeted to these users. And that was just a trend we saw across the whole spectrum of new startups at the time in 2014 and 15 and.

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Kaiwei and myself, my co-founder, we kind of felt like when we looked at our own relationship to smartphones or interviewed other users that we were habitually overwhelmed. I found myself checking my smartphone, email or news or even social media before getting out of bed to brush my teeth in the morning and really sort of setting my day on a certain trajectory. Or maybe I'm at the beach and I found myself seeing an email when I just wanted to change the song.

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Siara (07:06)

Mm-hmm.

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Joe (07:22)

And, know, I was supposed to have the day off, so to speak. And so there's all these instances where I felt like I didn't want all of the bells and the whistles of essentially a mini computer in my pocket and that we felt like others might enjoy intentionally kind of taking themselves away from that. it actually was also really inspired by in my very early internet days of AOL instant messenger where, you know, there was really only one computer in my father's house where

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Siara (07:22)

to.

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Joe (07:51)

I could get on the internet. And when I left that room, I essentially left the internet behind. So there was a really clear boundary. And I just felt like the smartphone made it sort of ubiquitous that we now had an internet in our pockets 24 7 If we're going to the bathroom, waiting in line for a second, we found ourselves reaching for our phone. so, you know, our very first sort of hypothesis was that like, would people enjoy taking a break? and we'd still give them a phone. So they had that peace of mind of.

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what if there was an emergency or you needed to get a hold of someone or your car broke down, you know, there's a lot of reasons why a phone makes a lot of sense and is a great use of modern technology. But with just all of the noise that came with it, know, click bait news, sending notifications or social media or shopping or whatever it was that, you know, you found yourself checking and rechecking. We just wanted to encourage you to, you know, step back and not to ditch it forever. Not saying like,

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go live in a cabin off the grid, but maybe for an evening or a weekend or even a whole vacation, you might enjoy and find some peace of mind stepping away from the internet.

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Siara (09:00)

Do you use exclusively the light phone with no other complementary smartphone?

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Joe (09:06)

Yeah, I personally haven't had a smartphone in probably six and a half years or so whenever basically the Light Phone 2 earliest prototypes were semi-functioning. know, guinea pig alpha user number one. I do obviously have many other devices like this laptop, how I'm connecting with you and you know, I've had tablets and other things I've tried over the years, but I personally have found that I don't need a smartphone.

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Siara (09:21)

Mm-hmm.

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Joe (09:35)

in my life, the way I've sort of organized different things. You know, I run this company, The Light Phone, but I use this computer and then, you know, I set clear expectations with my team of, you know, if you need to contact me at such and such time, I may not see your email and if it's urgent to call or text me. But if I can see it first thing in the morning, then, you know, I'll reply as soon as I check my email. And so I have this really satisfying moment where I close my laptop at the end of the day.

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and leave the work and the different stresses of that behind. Some users do use the Light Phone as a complimentary device. I've spoken with lot of freelancers, for instance, maybe they do hair or tattoos and they're kind of moving around to different shops and they'll have a smartphone as their kind of work phone and that's what their clients get. That's how they're able to take different payment options that the Light Phone doesn't have or these other features that they might need for their

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their career, even social media being a part of that promotion. But then when it comes to like, you know, ending their day with their tattoo gun or their, you know, salon gear, they put that smartphone away and they have their light phone, God forbid, you know, friends and family need to get ahold of them. So we've definitely seen that balance work for people as well. But I think the majority of our users do go full-time light phone. And that's probably where the real magic happens too.

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Siara (10:35)

Mm-hmm.

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And so six and a half years.

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I think this minimalistic phone lifestyle could very well be the future as we all become more aware of how the internet and social media and all of these different devices impact our mental health. So if this is a future that puts you six and a half years ahead of everyone else, I'm curious what you've observed difference-wise in both yourself and maybe everyone around you. It must feel like you're a bit of on an island.

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where not everyone is doing what you're doing, so I'm curious what you've observed.

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Joe (11:33)

Yeah, mean, to be totally honest, it's six and a half years. It seems so foreign to even think of what my life might have been like having the smartphone day in and out. I mean, I've had some of the pretty obvious, probably positive benefits of like my attention span getting better and stronger, my memory, you know, just being able to think of what I did and what conversations I had the previous night or, you know, weekend.

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I've gotten so much time back, so I've been able to pursue all sorts of hobbies. started playing the piano, which was something I've like said I wanted to start doing for, I don't know, a decade before that probably. So, you know, finally had no more excuses of time or anything like that to really dive into that. I found myself reading a lot more. So there was just, you know, these maybe obvious.

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Siara (12:03)

Mm.

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Joe (12:24)

benefits, but they're very real and they kind of snowball when instead of seeing the news every morning, I'm being inspired by authors with very intentional words. I almost feel like I'm having a conversation. It's just a totally different mindset than being fragmented by social media where it's really positive, really negative, and just kind of like a mix match of so much information in a matter of seconds. But in terms of like,

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Siara (12:47)

Mm-hmm.

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Joe (12:50)

you know, social life and different things. Yeah, I think there's definitely friction to doing something like a lifestyle changes drastically is going light as we call it. At first, I was definitely like not in as many group threads as I used to be and, you know, felt maybe a little bit of isolation socially compared to maybe what I used to be. But a lot of that also was kind of a distraction to like during my workday, trying to find the perfect GIF

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Siara (13:03)

Yeah.

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Joe (13:17)

reply to a friend when really it's just like I should focus on what I'm doing so that we can hang out after work. And I think, know, similar to like my colleagues, you just set different expectations. You know, when me and my mom want to do a FaceTime, we'll just like text about when a good time for it is and then set that plan. And then I'll know to be at home by device so that we can, you know, do a video call. And, you know, friends know that if they post about

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Siara (13:24)

Mm-hmm.

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Joe (13:44)

party or a show or an art gallery opening on Instagram, I might not see it. So if they want me to come I get almost like a personal invitation, which is really nice and special. So, you know, it's and I'm sure I've missed out on experiences, you know, the FOMO of going away from smartphones, but I don't think that like I feel like I'm completely isolated in any way or any more than I might have felt on a smartphone. I think actually like

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Siara (13:58)

Yeah.

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Joe (14:14)

scrolling social media when you're feeling lonely only exaggerates that feeling for me. So in a weird way, like I kind of feel less lonely having not constant access to the internet.

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Siara (14:18)

Yeah.

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that's definitely what I would have guessed it would be like I have left social media for well I was off, you know

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Instagram and the major social media platforms for about two years and I compare it to your experience with getting those personal invites from folks. I felt like I was getting in real life updates from folks and I was also able to share, you know, exciting things happening in my life with my people in person and that's hands down my favorite part of it. So it's good to know that there's, you know, sort of similar patterns happening there. Have you ever

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Joe (14:57)

There was

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some like, you know, not to sugar coat the experience too much, like things like QR codes became very prominent over the pandemic. So there was some friction with that. Some of the concerts I like to go to have moved to different apps for the ticket entry, but there's always a workaround. And sometimes, you know, in the case of menus and QR codes, it's having a conversation with the waiter or waitress about what their favorite thing on the menu is and you know.

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Siara (15:05)

Yeah.

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Mm-hmm.

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Joe (15:25)

them asking,

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you don't have a smartphone? And you know, sometimes it leads to an interesting conversation, but there definitely is friction. But none of it's been so severe that I'm like, this is really starting to affect my life. One user described it as a minor inconvenience to getting their life back. And I thought that was really well said.

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Siara (15:43)

Mmm.

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Yeah, that should be a tagline.

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Has the light phone ever, it seems like your personal network has been really supportive, even a server at a restaurant. Has the phone ever triggered a strong reaction from people? We both work in the tech industry, so I think a lot of times the incentives look very different, maybe even opposite to what the light phone is putting out there. So do you find this concept polarizing for some folks?

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Joe (16:13)

Well, especially in 2014 and 15 when I started pitching and it was totally just a concept at this time, you we didn't have a working product in that Google program. The reaction was incredibly polarizing. And I think there was some advisors or, you know, guests that came in that were like, my God, I totally get what you're doing. Email is really taking over my life. I want this phone now. But there was so many people that were like, this is kind of the dumbest idea I've ever heard.

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Siara (16:27)

Mm.

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Joe (16:43)

It's going completely against the direction of everything else and like, why would you ever want to go backwards? Interestingly enough, I did see some of those people that were really off put by it initially kind of come around to the idea. One of them, I remember emailing me months after I presented it saying, I can't stop thinking about your dumb little phone. you know, and I think that's where as an artist, felt like, you know, polarizing

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Siara (16:49)

Mm-hmm.

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Yeah

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Joe (17:12)

is actually good because it's, triggering a reaction, whether it's positive, negative, it's causing someone to really think about it. more than, know, if they ignored it for instance, but since 2014, we've seen the conversation you kind of alluded to it really changed. Like I think the awareness and just, you know, a lot of people are really feeling dragged down by years of scrolling and scrolling and scrolling and kind of weighing on them mentally and emotionally. And so.

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Siara (17:23)

Mm-hmm.

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Joe (17:40)

Nowadays the reaction isn't like that's the dumbest idea ever. It's like, my god, I wish I could but So, you know not everyone can do it, but I think people understand why Someone would have to do it. I don't really have to explain That social media, you know has all these negative things because people felt it for so long personally so I've definitely seen that shift change and then It's something that every user has sort of commented on but if you pull this out

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Siara (17:47)

Yeah.

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Joe (18:08)

you know, you're at a restaurant or a bar or something and someone sees you using this phone, people are like, what the heck is that? Is that a phone? And so there's a lot of that. It's definitely a very like noticeable thing. And, know, again, some people might think it's stupid or whatever, but often those things lead to really interesting conversations about what it means to be a human in relation to technology. I'm sure some of my ex-girlfriends might.

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Siara (18:14)

Mm-hmm.

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Joe (18:33)

speak to some like friction of not being able to send a photo or not wanting to text,

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Siara (18:33)

Yeah, of course.

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Joe (18:38)

you know, you can't really have a an argument over text message on the light phone. It's just too slow and hard. So just because you don't like to text, you know, there's no paragraphs on the Light Phone? no, no, I'd be like six texts

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Siara (18:43)

You

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There's no paragraphs on the light film.

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Joe (18:53)

But I think, you know, in general, I don't believe it's a good idea to argue over a text message. There's too many.

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opportunities for miscommunication. In that anyway. you know, any of those frictions I've kind of like embraced as like positives in a way. You know, it even changes how I might text someone or if, you know, whatever, might pick up the phone rather than text someone if it's a relatively complicated thing I'm trying to get across.

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Siara (19:03)

That's so true. And it's become so normalized.

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Yeah.

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Mm-hmm. Are there emojis on the light phone?

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Joe (19:26)

We did recently, maybe a year or two ago, add the ability to have a limited selection of emojis. I think it's 24 emojis. So that was something I actually like initially was like, we don't ever need emojis, but we survey our users each year and try to learn like what little features they might enjoy. And that was like overwhelmingly voted something people wanted access to. And it's been really appreciated by our user base. So

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We do have a limited emoji support, but we don't want it to be like you getting lost to find the perfect sushi emoji or something to send back.

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Siara (20:04)

And I mean, speaking of, it's great that you survey your users. I would guess that you receive many requests for new features and that not all align with your philosophy. So with the Light 3 phone, I think available for pre-order on the horizon, can you talk about the progression of the models and how you decide which features make the cut?

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Joe (20:25)

Yeah, I mean, you're totally right. Especially even just going from the original Light Phone, which was only phone calls, to the Light Phone 2, which now had a screen, texting, and a potential roadmap of tools. And each year we've added new tools. Things like the alarm, calculator, calendar, directions, directory, a music player. So, you know, one can start to imagine how that might...

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start to snowball into a full-fledged smartphone at some point. And so we've been really intentional with drawing clear lines about what the light phone will never have. And that's, you know, any infinite feed, something that you would find yourself checking and checking or getting lost in, whether that's social media or the news, it will never have an internet browser. Again, this thing to just kind of check and recheck or, you know, if you find yourself bored, you can start entertaining yourself. And that's not

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The goal of the light phone, as you said in the beginning, it's designed to be used as little as possible. And even when we add a tool like the music player or directions or any other tool we add, it's always with intentional use in mind. So, you know, really being thoughtful about you open the phone with a task that you're trying to do. And because it's a little slower of a phone with the E Ink screen, you're kind of not getting lost where in the smartphone, you sort of move quicker than your brain can process. And people will describe like,

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opening and closing an app five times in a row, unconsciously. they're like, and you know, these are just things we hear all the time from users where like that won't really happen on the light phone because you have to be really conscious of what you're doing. And so when we introduced the new light phone, it really keeps the same, what we call the light OS, our software. And so it's not trying to add any new features other than the camera is the one notable new feature that it has.

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Siara (21:51)

Yes.

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Cool.

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Joe (22:15)

Other than that, it's really about just being a slightly different form factor. Again, from our surveys for users, typically users who are using it as their only phone and just want it to be a little bit more utilitarian. Some of the biggest upgrades include that we have one model now that works around the globe where for the light phone too, you'd have to have a different model for the U S or for Europe for some, you know, businessmen that became quite.

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Siara (22:30)

Mm-hmm.

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Joe (22:43)

inconvenience or even you know we get fortunately a lot of like celebrity musicians that want to try the light phone and they're traveling all over so you know that's not really about adding a new feature but making it just so much more useful to the existing users it's now made out of metal so like it's just a much more premium build it's a little bit bigger which you know this screen and phone is amazing how small it is but for some of our friends that are you know in there

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Siara (22:51)

Mm-hmm.

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Okay.

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Joe (23:11)

40s and 50s and eyesight is starting to dwindle a little bit. It's just almost too hard to use the light phone. And you know, people always say, I'd love to get that for my mom. But in reality, the original, the light phone 2 might be too small. So it was really just about kind of trying to make it the most premium light phone. And we don't really see it as a replacement, but sort of like, you know, maybe this is the best phone to get for your kid. And you might be coming from the top tier iPhone and want something a little bit more.

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powerful. And so we like offering them side by side.

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Siara (23:40)

Mm-hmm.

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So speaking of kids, I really wanted to ask if this was something that people bought for their kids because there's just obviously been this concern about the safety of phones for children. There's even legislation just recently announced in the UK aiming to limit or ban those addictive feeds, those infinite feeds that you spoke of earlier for minors under 18. So what is that looking like? Is that something that parents are getting into for their children?

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Joe (24:13)

Yeah, it is definitely a trend we're seeing as well from parents to just even like whole schools have reached out and initiated the phone. Kai and I didn't realistically set out to make a kid's phone, but I think because of that, the kids are more open-minded. I don't think a kid wants a kid phone. They want an adult phone. So at least the light phone is that. I mean, I can totally understand why a parent might want to give their kid this because there's

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Siara (24:31)

Yeah. Yeah.

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Joe (24:40)

no way to send photographs, there's no way to, you know, see things that are maybe inappropriate on the internet, or even just to be so distracted by the device. But they're still out and about and can call or text, get some minor directions or these things that might be very useful and handy. And I think going forward, it's something that we want to embrace further. Some parents have asked about like a find my phone feature so that they could actually see where the child is. And so those are

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Siara (25:05)

Mmm.

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Joe (25:09)

on the horizon for us to lean into this further. But one case study we did do was with a school in Massachusetts called Buxton. It's a little private school out in the Berkshires. And they got light phones for the entire school and faculty. And for one year, or I guess maybe two now, they went fully smartphone free. And you know.

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I mean, the school still has like top tier computers and there's like a music room and art rooms and all of these great facilities. But, you know, they saw technology as a tool in those instances. And it was pretty amazing to see, I think, obviously attention and grades and whatnot in the classroom improved. But I think what was really beautiful to hear was like socially around campus and especially at meal time, there wasn't as much clicks of, you know, eating lunch with the same people or people just.

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you know, kind of checking out and being on their phone rather than engaging and meeting and making new friends. And so that was really wonderful to hear. And we're definitely seeing, especially in light of this new book that came out, The Anxious Generation, a lot of schools and parents have had interests. And, you know, I think that book is inspiring some of this legislation we're hearing about. So we're keeping an open mind and...

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Siara (26:14)

Yes.

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Joe (26:24)

open to having any conversations with schools or governments or otherwise about how the light phone might be a good alternative to a or you know an option for someone in a school with a smartphone band that maybe this would still be an acceptable device.

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Siara (26:31)

Mm-hmm.

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Yeah, mean what's so cool about that is it's not just, you know, one kid adopting the light phone and trying to, you know, mesh with all of these other kids with an iPhone, but they got to really all kind of create this community around it. yeah.

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Joe (26:51)

That's a huge point because we have

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seen parents give their kid a light phone and feel like, I making my kid seem like a loser or like he can't participate in the same way that others can? So that is way harder for lot of parents and kids to kind of do it on their own.

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Siara (27:04)

Mm-hmm.

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yeah, I remember begging my parents to upgrade me to an iPhone. I had a flip phone and when I got the iPhone, I genuinely felt like it changed my social life a little bit. Now looking back, who knows if that was for better or for worse, but it's certainly a bit of a social experiment. And then speaking of Apple, I would love to pick your brain about...

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the campaign that you did when you wrote a letter to Tim Cook. Can you share more about the inspiration for that?

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Joe (27:36)

Yeah, so it was around the time that the Light Phone 2 was about to ship. So was like the summer of 2019 before the pandemic. And we had for the first time a little bit of money to spend, but not a lot naturally on a marketing campaign. And so we thought, you know, what would be a clever way to try to get the biggest reach.

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at the time, Tim Cook had been talking a lot about

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smartphone abuse of overusing smartphones, particularly obviously the iPhone. And, you know, this was after they had just announced the screen time feature where people could now track their screen time. And he was saying things like, if you're getting a thousand notifications a day, you're using the phone the wrong way. You shouldn't be looking at the phone more than someone else's eyes or, you know, we don't want you always on the phone. And so all of these messages he was saying felt like we were speaking the same language.

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But obviously Apple, when it came to actually implementing changes, there wasn't any real meaningful changes to take that

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Siara (28:29)

Mm-hmm.

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Joe (28:37)

So we thought it'd be funny to write him love letters, basically saying, we're on the same team, we'd love to chat, which is true. I think as the biggest phone maker, they'd have the potential to make a huge impact with any sort of changes, but it was more of a clever way to kind of like...

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Siara (28:47)

Mm-hmm.

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Joe (28:56)

flip his own words on himself a little bit. And so the letters took the form of billboards outside the Apple offices, as well as like a full page in the New York Times. I thought it was really fun because we were able to document it. And even though was only like one billboard in Apple in California, we were able to like share that billboard across our social media and newsletters and whatnot. So even though we couldn't have like

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Siara (29:07)

It's cool. Awesome.

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Joe (29:23)

global distribution of an ad, but we were able to do something clever and then try to share it on the internet.

‍

Siara (29:29)

Are there forums or

‍

your space where people are talking about, I know the Center for Humane Technology exists, but I'm curious if

‍

groups of other minds like you, designers

‍

who are thinking and talking about this, who can have these conversations

‍

big people like Tim Cook aren't necessarily involved to the conversation.

‍

Joe (29:54)

I wish I could say there was, but there doesn't seem to be a lot. And you know.

‍

Siara (30:00)

Mm-hmm.

‍

Joe (30:01)

There are fortunately a lot of communities that were somewhat a part of and others that are less related to Light Phone that are more user generated. So there's like a Light Phone Reddit that a bunch of users put together. And if you go on there, you can hear all sorts of stories of tips on how to make the transition easier or like what kind of maybe other devices or tools you might supplement a Light Phone with, whether that's like a notebook or a little camera or a

‍

Garmin for your car or some thing like that. So people are always sharing tips back and forth on there. And you know, I tried this phone and I liked it for this, but didn't like that I tried this phone. And so that's encouraging to see that there is a movement growing of this, but it's not coming from the top up. And if there is such a group out there that exists, we'd love to join the

‍

Siara (30:48)

Mm-hmm.

‍

Do you have concerns about how big tech is acting you know, or lack of action around this issue? Do you think that they care about our digital well-being?

‍

Joe (31:03)

I don't think they care in any genuine way. No,

‍

I think there's been a few instances of like shallow, washing of it of, know, trying to say, we have this feature where kids can this and that. I think at the end of the day, so much of big tech, the actual business model, which is what, moves all of their decisions, money, capitalism, of course.

‍

Siara (31:13)

Hmm.

‍

Joe (31:26)

is tied to us being on their products more and more that any attempts to, have us have a better relationship are really just like marketing facing or to try to maybe proactively keep the federal regulations at bay or something like that. It doesn't seem like their interest would be to really help you have your best life when they make more money if you're on Instagram for an extra 20 minutes.

‍

So they're gonna show you whatever thing might trigger you to stay on for 20 minutes, even if you have somewhere to be and something else might make you happier. So I think until there's a drastic business model change, I don't think that any of the actions are gonna be in true good faith. But the fact that they've even acknowledged or admitted through some of these actions, I think is a big step regardless.

‍

Siara (31:59)

Mm-hmm.

‍

Right.

‍

So the incentive is not our wellness. So in the past you have mentioned third party data collection on the traditional smartphone, the Android, the iPhones.

‍

Joe (32:19)

I don't think so, unfortunately.

‍

Siara (32:31)

And I just wanted to know if you could break down for us how that data economy works for those who might not fully understand it. understanding is that it's coming from apps that we wouldn't necessarily guess. And so I'm super curious, what's happening behind the scenes that we might not be aware of.

‍

Joe (32:47)

Yeah, I mean, I don't want to pretend to be an expert on it all because I'm sure there's even more to it than I'm fully aware of. But the basic gist of it, as I understand is that, even through these platforms, they're collecting all sorts of data, but something like Instagram, their real customers are advertisers. So people that want to say, I'm looking for artists that live in these types of cities that have this type of income that would be interested in these types of products.

‍

And through this combination of data from all things, know, credit cards to even your Spotify listening, your web searches, and probably so many more things than I'm even aware of, they create these profiles of targeted users that then they can sell for premium price because it's exactly who an advertiser is trying to speak to. And so they're collecting data and then they're selling it to these people that, get the data together and create these profiles.

‍

all with the goal of, you know, better understanding us to sell us things that we may or may not want or need. And then in the attempt to keep us on the platforms, which is called like the attention economy and looking at more ads, because if I see 10 ads, they'll make more money. If I saw 20 ads, if I stayed for an extra 30 minutes on the app, so they get really good in the algorithm at showing you a mix of positive and negative things kind of in like

‍

Siara (33:46)

Ehh

‍

Joe (34:08)

a sort of slot machine way where you'll lose a bunch, then you see something that makes you really happy, and then you see a bunch of that things, you want one more happy hit of dopamine. And so that kind of cycle keeps us wanting to scroll. if we're on there longer scrolling, there's more ads we can see, which is more profit for them. Even if that might have emotional and time-based effects on my personal life. So it really is a full cyclical thing.

‍

Siara (34:17)

Mmm.

‍

Joe (34:34)

when Google Maps gives you free mapping, they're sharing your location data and triangulating all sorts of connections about who you are as a shopper and a person and what kinds of things trigger you to perhaps make a purchase or whatnot. So it's really quite a dark and scary thing to think about because with the Light Phone we see it much more as like tools where we make this product.

‍

Siara (34:51)

It's freaky. It's freaky.

‍

Joe (35:00)

We have these tools like directions and we pay for the direction data. And so for us, you know, it's like there is a cost. The phone costs $300 and that's so that we can include free maps. But every time you open the map tool, we're paying so that your data isn't paying for it. We don't ever share your location. It's completely anonymous and privatized so that if we even do have to work with a third party.

‍

Siara (35:17)

Mmm.

‍

Joe (35:24)

you know, no user information, but we at light have no incentive in your data. That's not even a part of our business model. We sell phones and now optionally SIM cards. So, you know, that's our bottom line. Instagram is free, but obviously has this and so many apps are like that, that Instagram, guess is maybe the obvious one, but I think things like directions, you know, that's less obvious or even using Duolingo, you know, they're using that to help.

‍

Siara (35:39)

Yes.

‍

Joe (35:50)

translators and other things so they're making money in all these backdoor ways

‍

Siara (35:54)

think I've heard somewhere if you're not, if something is free, you might just be the product yourself. And so...

‍

It's funny that you say Google Maps. I've definitely had the prompt of like, are you okay with Google sharing this data? My immediate reaction if I'm given the choice is to say no, but I always assume, there's probably somehow some way that they can still get some data legally. And it makes me wonder if that's the reasoning for the question that I think a lot of

‍

had is like, our phones listening to us? I say something to

‍

my friend in front of my phone and then I get an ad for it. But really, the data is just so connected that they're able to make these assumptions based on things that you didn't consciously say out loud or really do.

‍

Joe (36:38)

Yeah, I mean, I've experienced that phenomenon so many times, but in trying my best to research, it doesn't actually seem like they're listening in that way. It's just that they're triangulating data. But it's as simple as like, if you DM someone about something, you might see it. Or if you email someone, Google, and you use Google email, they're scraping your emails to see what you bought, to see what you're asking about. So, you know, you might search something on Google and then you open Instagram and there's an ad for it.

‍

Siara (37:00)

I didn't know that.

‍

Mm-hmm.

‍

Joe (37:08)

So it's like,

‍

that's the kind of triangulation that's like two very different companies are mutually benefiting from this economy of attention and data.

‍

Siara (37:17)

my search queries are probably...

‍

25 % of what they used to be on Google because I spend so much time just asking my chat GPT app or my perplexity app, whatever app I think is smartest. So do you feel that that's gonna shift to those generative AI models where people are searching certain things, prompting certain things, and that data will actually then lead to you being advertised based on those queries?

‍

Joe (37:47)

I would presume that seems like a direction that they would probably go. I don't know for sure to say or like accuse in any way, but it seems logical that that's sort of the way that tech has always moved. And I would assume that GBT is going in that same direction. If you know, and maybe even more aggressively perhaps.

‍

Siara (37:52)

Mm-hmm.

‍

Yeah.

‍

Yeah.

‍

Can you speak to privacy on the Light Phone? Does the Light Phone give users a greater sense of privacy?

‍

Joe (38:13)

I do think it does, you know, I want to be clear that we don't have any like unique security. It's not like encrypted in some very special patented way, but the reality is that Light doesn't have any third party apps. So, you you can't download some calculator that's now like tracking your location without you knowing in the background and doing things without you being aware. So I think from that degree.

‍

there isn't any third-party information getting on your phone and like let's say God forbid you lost your phone and someone was able to get into the device somehow or maybe you don't have a passcode There's just inherently so much less information like, you know, they can see my contacts My notes in my calendar maybe if you decide to have those tools, but there's no photos that can be stolen Doesn't have credit card information. They can't

‍

Siara (38:54)

Yeah.

‍

Joe (39:06)

use my email and start changing logins and things. So in that degree, I think the lack of data that's on the light phone intentionally inherently means it's a more private device because it just knows so much less about you. And then the device itself never syncs that kind of data with the cloud ever. So it's not like someone could hack into your account on the...

‍

Siara (39:26)

Okay.

‍

Joe (39:30)

computer side and now see all of your text conversations. know, Light, we would never ever have access to your call or text history. That's, you know, private and secure on the device. So I think for those reasons, it is a more private device. Realistically, I think users are proud of that privacy, but I don't think it's the number one reason that people buy the Light phone. I think it's a kind of secondary or third reason. think primarily people buy it because they're

‍

Siara (39:51)

Mm-hmm.

‍

Joe (39:56)

relationship with their smartphone has gone sour and they are feeling, you know, emotionally weighed down by constantly checking and rechecking and wasting all this time or maybe they're, you know, find themselves buying stuff habitually because they're being so well targeted with ads. So I think it tends to be that or like, you know, their child's safety or their child's performance in school. Like these are the kinds of concerns I hear more about. But I think the fact that our privacy policy aligns with that

‍

Siara (40:10)

Mm-hmm.

‍

Joe (40:25)

message so well means a lot to our users.

‍

Siara (40:30)

Do you believe that an individual can be addicted to their phone?

‍

Joe (40:34)

Yeah, I think for the first few years I was really hesitant to use the word addiction just because it's such a heavy word for, so many very, very real addictions that are in the world outside of phones. But more and more studies just keep coming out that prove that we are capable of being very addicted to our smartphone. And I would say to some degree, most of us probably are, including myself, I think, you know.

‍

Siara (40:44)

Yeah.

‍

Joe (41:03)

we're humans and we're vulnerable and they've gotten very good at exploiting that and I think anytime we find ourselves reaching for our phone unconsciously because we're bored for a second is a sign that we're addicted or if your phone's about to die and you get really anxious and nervous about what you might do and to the extent that people have lost their sense of navigation in their own cities because they rely so heavily on the GPS which you know like I don't even mean that

‍

Siara (41:15)

Yeah.

‍

Me.

‍

Joe (41:31)

to call anyone out in a way. It's something that our users

‍

Siara (41:33)

No, it's real.

‍

Joe (41:35)

say that they get uncontrollably nervous at the thought of not having the GPS to navigate them. And so what I see is when people switch to the light phone, they're really self-empowered and they feel like, you know, I'm gonna figure it out. I'm gonna get there. And there's some beautiful stories in that regard. But unfortunately it does seem like the algorithms have been so good that they have made people addicted.

‍

Siara (42:00)

Mm.

‍

Joe (42:00)

And there's

‍

so many types of internet addiction that we've had people come to us, know gambling and addicts online gambling that you know the light phone doesn't have access to that to like pornography addictions and you know, these were segments that like weren't even on my mind when we created the light phone But they've come to us and found us to be a really great tool to help them manage their addiction to these other things that aren't just social media and whatnot So I do think it's possible

‍

Siara (42:22)

Wow.

‍

Joe (42:27)

bold to be addicted to a smartphone. And I would say that there's not any shame in kind of admitting that to yourself because, you know, the smartest minds in the world and billions and billions of dollars are put into making them addictive by design. So don't feel like, my God, I'm an addict. And we try in our advertising to never point the finger and say, you, you're an addict and you need, because I don't think that language is very helpful.

‍

Siara (42:30)

Thank

‍

Mm-hmm.

‍

Mm-hmm.

‍

Joe (42:55)

If we do, it tries to be lighthearted and it's like, isn't it funny that we bring our phones to the toilet with us? Or something like that.

‍

Siara (43:03)

yeah, that's awesome. I think it's a sensitive topic and I want to it as such, I've definitely ruminated on those of us who might be dealing with, you know, maybe an addiction problem or a preexisting mental health condition and how the smartphones could possibly, exaggerate some of those that people are dealing with.

‍

Have you had other users share feedback about how their mental health has changed since switching over?

‍

Joe (43:29)

Yeah, to be honest, it's like been one of the most humbling aspects of doing this project is especially once the Light Phone 2 got out in the world and people were really using it as their primary device. it's not an easy switch. There's definitely users that found themselves trying it and then going back to the smartphone. But the users that were really able to embrace the new lifestyle have had wonderful positive changes in their life and, you know, they describe

‍

how much more peace of mind they feel, how much more productive they are, how they're a better father or friend or family member in all of these different ways. one I love hearing is from like new parents who you know, found themselves with their infant in their arm looking at something stupid on their smartphone and being like, my kid is looking up and there's something more important.

‍

Siara (44:13)

Yeah.

‍

Joe (44:18)

that I'd rather be doing and they're only gonna be that size for so long. So I think those are the kinds of stories that just really hit home for me

‍

Everyone having that kind of change, you we've had high schoolers not obviously the vast majority of them on their own accord ask for a light phone not because their parents said you should get one because social media was just making them feel really bad about themselves, you know that comparing and judging and bullying that happens Which I'm almost grateful. I didn't grow up with that that age myself

‍

Siara (44:41)

Yeah.

‍

Joe (44:49)

So yeah, do. mean, the stories that we hear are just truly touching and we've tried to share a lot of those in some of our, kind of testimonial pieces because they're just so moving. And I also try to remind people that like those people changed their life. Our phone doesn't have any feature that's going to

‍

make you a better father or anything like that. It's just going to maybe be the catalyst to take away some of the things that would keep you from that previously. you you put in the hours and the work to achieve whatever new goals or places you've come in in your relationships. so, that's beautiful. It's like a gym membership. You can buy the light phone, but just because you bought the gym membership doesn't mean you're going to go to the gym. You have to wake up.

‍

Siara (45:24)

Mmm.

‍

You have to commit. Mm-hmm.

‍

Joe (45:33)

commit to it, yeah. it

‍

is, I try to compare it more to like, you know, a diet or a gym membership or even maybe like studying a new topic, learning a new language or hobby.

‍

Siara (45:45)

and how funny it is that possibly the absence of your smartphone might be the biggest tool for improving your life when it feels like so many apps are...

‍

advertising saying like we will make you a better girlfriend, make you a better father, we'll make you better at the gym, all the while all those things that we want to get better at we can't do if we're looking at the phone. So that's really encouraging that the absence of something could help us rather than yet another thing that we consume.

‍

Joe (46:13)

Yeah, I think that's nailed it. capitalism wants to sell us a solution to every problem when really sometimes the solution is not buying something new. But we want that magic pill. I just take this pill and I'm cured of this thing. But yeah, I don't think that's how life works really.

‍

Siara (46:22)

Yes.

‍

Definitely not. So I want to shift a little bit to your personal lifestyle. What are your personal boundaries when it comes to digital use? Obviously the Light Phone sets some of those boundaries for you, which is nice, but do you have a set of digital etiquette rules that you follow or just like non-negotiables around technology?

‍

Joe (46:51)

Yeah, I mean, I think before going into like what I do specifically, I think there isn't really a one size fits all, which is really cool about the light phone. Like people fit it into their own digital,

‍

etiquette in their own ways and you know, it's even been an ongoing process for myself as I either take away or introduce something new in my life. I think at a high level one of my absolute favorite things that I kind of touched upon was that I have this one laptop and that's where I do everything light phone and that's the only digital device I have with like my light phone email on it for instance. And so setting that boundary of like this very clear thing of like opening

‍

Siara (47:30)

Mm.

‍

Joe (47:34)

light phone work and closing light phone work and so to supplement that I do have a second computer it's like my previous computer that's only for my art and my music and you know nothing work related I don't even have email or social media or any of that on there so kind of separating in that way in more other specific ways like the light phone has social media accounts

‍

We embrace the irony of that because it's a great way for us to meet people where they are on their smartphone, perhaps wanting to see something that, like our product existing. And so like, I personally manage those through some third party platforms that aggregate the different platforms. And I'm not actually going on Instagram to reply to comments, but it's just a feed of just the comments that I can then sit there and write my replies to. I've never really.

‍

Siara (48:00)

Yeah.

‍

Joe (48:27)

shot photos much on an iPhone, so I've always had film cameras. I always had like a GPS in my car, even when I had an iPhone just because I feel like it's more useful to have it up on the window and...

‍

Siara (48:38)

Mm.

‍

Joe (48:40)

slightly different graphics and whatnot. So there are other digital tools in my life, but I think overall it's like, I do have an iPad that I could in theory download some apps. if someone sends me money on Venmo, I can, you know, send that back to my bank or vice versa. But those things I'm not always doing on the fly and I don't think I need access to them 24 seven.

‍

Siara (48:57)

Okay.

‍

Mm-hmm.

‍

Joe (49:04)

So, you

‍

know, there's some degree of planning. Like I kind of mentioned, have, my parents live on the other side of the country and I friends overseas. And so for some of them, I still use my laptop as the primary form of communication. And then we'll set times to have very intentional video calls. And, I think that's a really great way rather than like sending a WhatsApp message back and forth sporadically. It's like, let's just catch up on the phone. It's so much better.

‍

Siara (49:30)

Mm-hmm.

‍

I'm curious about, I mean, screen time isn't just your phone and your laptop, right? It's also television. It's also when other people are kind of, showing you something. So do you, are you a TV person? Are you a nature person? Like, I'm so curious what your life looks like, because I think all of us want to be out in nature more.

‍

But you having all this time back, having had the light phone for six and a half years, I'm sure you get to embrace that more.

‍

Joe (50:00)

Definitely, I was never a TV person so that hasn't been a drastic switch but I think the heart of that question is so true which is just because I don't have a smartphone on me like this laptop I could very easily waste an hour seeing doomsday news scrolling through clickbaity articles or getting lost on YouTube which I guess is some...

‍

Siara (50:16)

Yes.

‍

Joe (50:21)

form of TV to some degree or you know any of these other things are still susceptible and so you know I've heard users talk about like actually putting their laptop in a cubby so it's like they have to intentionally grab it out in different ways people are intentional with those things I do think people watching like maybe a Netflix series or something at least they're watching like one thing whereas like on social media and the internet it's so much just like a complete bombardment of so many things

‍

Siara (50:33)

Hmm.

‍

Joe (50:49)

But when I have my light phone, I'm a huge walker and out in the world as much as possible. New York City is a beautiful place to walk around and I love that I don't have access to things. You know, I might be like, I wonder how that works. I wonder when this, know, and if the wonder is strong enough, maybe I look it up when I get home or maybe I talk to someone when I get to a bar or the park and I'm like, do you know how this works? Or, you know, you've come up with your own ideas. And so I think not having

‍

Siara (51:05)

Mm-hmm.

‍

Joe (51:17)

Any digital access when I'm out and about in the world is like my favorite part. And then when it comes to being at home, I'm always trying different things. And sometimes I'm better than other times. You know, if I'm a little hung over on a weekend morning, I might find myself doom scrolling on a computer and it doesn't feel good. But you know, it's not like the light phone has a hundred percent cured me of being a human being. I'm still vulnerable and capable and

‍

Siara (51:33)

Yes. Guilty.

‍

Joe (51:44)

lonely and sad and news makes me depressed in all the ways that everyone else is affected but

‍

I'm always kind of reminding myself to practice what I preach. I think speaking about this stuff so much, it's so, when I catch myself in those moments, it's so obvious to me what I'm doing that I'm able to kind of snap out of it. So I think even if you don't find yourself needing a light phone, there's so many ways we can be more conscious and intentional with even maybe taking some social media off your smartphone, but keeping a smartphone. Maybe it's not going as drastic.

‍

Siara (51:54)

Mm-hmm.

‍

Yeah.

‍

Joe (52:19)

as a light phone, separating different parts of your digital life to different specific devices. And like I said, there's not really a one size fits all, but I think we will all know ourselves and what we feel most susceptible to or feel like is maybe taking the biggest digital toll on ourselves and maybe reconsider how we use that in our lives or if it even needs to be in our lives altogether. Like some people have deleted their social media.

‍

Siara (52:26)

Mm-hmm.

‍

Yeah.

‍

Joe (52:47)

but still kept using a smartphone and found like, actually that helped me a lot. Other people have deleted social media, kept using a smartphone and then found themselves shopping or looking at houses they can't afford or the news or some other hole because the smartphone is so addictive, we just, yeah, some people it's just like maybe not the right tool for them and I think that's where the light phone might play a really important role.

‍

Siara (52:52)

way.

‍

Yeah, I think I'm a great proponent for the light phone because I think about this topic every single day of my life and still it is hard. You have to be disciplined I've actually made, my own version of a light phone. I'm sold on a light phone, by the way. I'm getting one, everyone. But I made my own version where I kept instead of trading it in when I upgraded an iPhone after, crushing it, essentially, it looks terrible.

‍

Joe (53:14)

You

‍

Siara (53:35)

I kept it, deleted everything off of it, email, social, and now it serves as a tool for me when I wake up early, I go to the gym, so I have podcasts that I might need, I have my health and fitness apps that I might need, navigation, like you said, I do get lost in my own city as well, and so it's like my own version of it, and the biggest thing that allows me to not fall into the

‍

traps of just, you know, re-downloading the Instagram app or re-downloading whatever app is that it's not connected to any network and I just have sort of set that boundary for that phone. So it's like my own little method. I think, yeah, it's a very ugly phone but that's even better because it's not as, you know, aesthetically pleasing to look at and so it's interesting how we'll all have to find our

‍

Joe (54:15)

I love that.

‍

Siara (54:29)

boundaries and what discipline that we have, but it's definitely taught me a few things. So I want to ask, grand scheme, what kind of world are you hoping to create through the work that you're doing at the Light Phone Company? if people truly embrace this minimalistic approach to technology, what do you think society could look like in 10 or 20 years?

‍

Joe (54:53)

Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. I try to remain self-aware enough to not think that I can single-handedly change this on any large scale, but always thinking very much about if one person can embrace the light phone and find a better balance in their life and how that can snowball. Maybe they inspire someone else in their family or close group and how that can grow. But I also think a lot about not just what light phone can do, but like what if

‍

Other companies come out with a similar kind of business model and honesty and transparency in the technology space. Maybe there's a competitor to some social media that does cost money and isn't there to just mine your data and sell you advertising, but actually connect to you and then let you get on with your life, you know, in a sort of totally different way that doesn't exist. And I don't think that's for

‍

Siara (55:43)

Hmm.

‍

Joe (55:48)

light as a brand to necessarily do, but I think there's so many opportunities for a new wave of technology companies. So I would say if I'm thinking large scale, I think the light phone might be just one of many phone options, know, any other category of products, whether it's shoes or cameras or jackets or anything you could think of cars. There's so many types of cars. You have rugged cars, you have simple cars, you have sports cars, you've, you know, cars for big families. Yet we all have the same.

‍

Siara (56:01)

Mm.

‍

Joe (56:17)

Smartphone, know Samsung Apple Google. They're more or less the same big glass boxes So I'd love to see a variety of phones with more specific demographics targeted, you know Could someone make a phone specifically for the blind? What might that look like? And so I love to see some of those things and then I just think there's so many other ways that especially when it comes to the software side opportunities for new kind of technology, but

‍

Siara (56:18)

Mm-hmm.

‍

Joe (56:44)

consumers have to be willing to pay for it and realize that it might be worth, that obviously anything that's free has a team of people that are getting paid behind the scenes. And so there needs to be some way to offset that. And I think as consumers, we need to assess whether like, is this worth that price for me? Is it bringing me value? Where when it's free, we kind of like stop that questioning. So I'd love to see a slew of companies and I'd love to see a lot less.

‍

Siara (57:05)

Yeah.

‍

Joe (57:10)

political divisiveness. think social media, I mean, there's always been echo chambers, even with old school news and newspapers, but I'd love to see more people talking in real life and in longer form. You know, I don't think 140 characters is appropriate for any sort of political discourse or any real conversation or, you know, as an artist, think social media really waters down the experience of viewing art. You know, this scale in between ads.

‍

Siara (57:39)

Yeah.

‍

Joe (57:40)

Above and below it. So, you know, I'd love to see more people and IRL doing some of these things and I think the power of the internet to share knowledge is so amazing, know, like going on YouTube and being able to find a video of someone fixing the exact refrigerator I have, that person's not doing it for any money or any incentives. They're just like, hey, I figured out how to fix this thing on my fridge and I'm gonna show you. It was a weird example, I guess, but like very practical and happens, you know, where you're like

‍

Siara (58:06)

Yeah

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Joe (58:09)

How does this, how does that? And I think I'd love to see more of that without these kind of corporate interests. Like I don't want to see the algorithm show me random political things when I'm looking at pianos, you know, or like something like that. So I'd want to imagine a world where the consumers are more conscious and not willing to just accept that our data is the commodity that pays for the entire internet ecosystem. And I think when that happens, we'll see a tide change where

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companies that either will pivot to addressing that in a more different way or there'll be a new breed of companies. And I of always talk to a lot of schools about the Light Phone process. And I'm just like, if my silly artist self can come up with this idea and somehow pull it off, like you guys here at Stanford can go way further. So I'd love to see what those kids can do way beyond what Light Phone could ever do.

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Siara (58:50)

Mmm.

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my gosh, yeah.

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Yeah, I think it's going to be very cool seeing the next phase of entrepreneurs come in because there's so many stats around how much more these kids are, one, aware of their mental health, but two, just care. Just care about how the world works and just care about the ethics of it all. So it'll be exciting.

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Joe (59:26)

And even, you know, the more senior people that are leading these huge companies that are like brilliant, instead of selling us clicks and advertising, what if we were using those brilliant minds to solve things like climate change and address other very real issues versus just, you know, how do we get someone to stay on Instagram for a few more minutes or sell slightly more targeted ad for a slightly higher price?

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Siara (59:41)

Mm-hmm.

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Yes, I think we're going to get there. I really do. That's what this podcast is all about.

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Joe (59:59)

I love the optimism. I try to keep that most days, but then some days I'm like, my God, is we really just moving full speed in the opposite direction? But I do tend to share that optimism overall.

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Siara (1:00:04)

It's hard.

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Yeah,

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yeah. no, I have my doom days for sure. Okay, so I ask every guest this. What are you logging out of this year and what are you logging into? However you may interpret that.

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Joe (1:00:22)

I think when it comes to logging into, there's a lot more of all those hobbies and things that I've shared. But specifically this year, I've really re-embraced my skateboarding roots. I think as you like hit your thirties initially and everyone gets jobs and girlfriends and there's just less time and our bodies don't quite work the same way. It kind of fell on the back burner for a few years, but skateboarding really was what

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Siara (1:00:35)

cool.

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Joe (1:00:47)

started any of my artistic endeavors and I still collage and paint but those are very solitary both in like a physical exercise sense but also socially so it's been so fun this year to like go out filming and it's you know humbling because we're not performing in the ways we once did or we're not competing with the top pros but we're competing with ourselves and

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out in the world, know, like going out to Harlem or the Bronx or, you know, all of these different boroughs and places I would never go if it weren't for skateboarding. So I've been doing a lot of that and that's been so fun and, you know, a fun way to like make something with your friends, get some exercise, creatively stimulate yourself a little bit. And then I think what I'd like to do less of and have been pretty good at is like some of the other things like drinking and staying up late and just trying to be better at.

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Siara (1:01:24)

Very cool.

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Joe (1:01:41)

Realizing how much I love waking up early and clear-headed and spending time with my books instead of just Getting an extra hour of sleep because I stayed out too long the night before which I love that too in New York City. It's Unfortunately like a very fun real thing that happens often but just learning to say no to things You know, like I could go to another concert tonight or I could just stay at home and read with my cat And so I think slowing down a little bit

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Siara (1:01:55)

Yeah.

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The joy of missing out, absolutely.

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Joe (1:02:08)

What I would love to

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log into more next year, I shouldn't even be saying it that far ahead, is like nature though. I think, you know, I get a lot of day-to-day walks in New York City, but I'd love to find a different relationship with nature where I could spend weeks and months outside the city. But that's something I'm sure every New Yorker will tell you.

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Siara (1:02:29)

Yeah, I mean, and there's some beautiful spots in New York that you could find, but also out of New York. So that's exciting.

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Joe (1:02:36)

but you can really

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let that control you too as an excuse. Like I'd make more art if only I was out in the woods more. So I try not to use it as that excuse.

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Siara (1:02:46)

yeah, I'm with you. I'm a camper, so I'm always looking for my next shot at getting out in So good for you for making that a priority for yourself. Okay, so what is next for Light Phone?

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What can we expect in the future? How can people stay informed and know what's happening

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Joe (1:03:06)

everything that we've been really working on and will be continuing to work on for the next couple of years is all about just refining the Light Phone experience itself. So when the Light Phone 2 first shipped, it only had calls and text and settings. And each year we've rolled out more features or even just like simple improvements like spell check, copy and paste and some of these things that just

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eliminate unnecessary friction. There's inevitable friction with any lifestyle change. You know, it's hard to go to the gym every day, but if something minor like not having spell check is making it so hard to use the product, that's a problem. So I've been really trying to work with the community to find things that are totally aligned with the phone, but we'll just make it so much more practical going into the future. And I think the Light Phone 3 is sort of one manifestation of that.

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Siara (1:03:46)

You

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Joe (1:04:00)

And I can't wait to keep working on these products and like making them as useful as they possibly can be all while still retaining that intentionality and, you know, simplicity of being designed to be used as little as possible. So I'm really excited about all of that, as well as just kind of building an ecosystem of other products that might supplement the phone. We made a web store that has a couple of things now, some accessories.

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Siara (1:04:13)

Ahem.

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Joe (1:04:27)

things like playing cards and postcards that you can buy. But I think there's a lot of opportunity to sell either things from other companies that we really like and appreciate or create our own tools that just kind of compliment having a light phone and might make it a little bit easier. And who knows, there might be whole other categories of products that I can see light embracing, through that same design and philosophical lens that we looked at phones.

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what other technology might we be able to put through that same filter.

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right now we're  D to C. We sell through our website.

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thelightphone.com. There's, like I mentioned before, a Reddit of users that have created in a Discord where you can ask questions as a potential user and get honest feedback. People share their stories for better or worse. The light phone definitely doesn't work for everyone. And so you can hear about some of the reasons it didn't work and maybe there's another phone that's recommended that might work better than the light phone for your needs. So if you are interested in this space,

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looking either at our blog on our website or perhaps there we And hopefully we'll have some cool collaborations too coming in the future. I think that's really exciting.

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Siara (1:05:39)

Yeah,

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I saw you had a collaboration with Kendrick Lamar last year. Is that correct?

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Joe (1:05:46)

Yeah, and so like, know, everything from the school collaboration we did to like a very big street popular brand like PG Lang, Kendrick Lamar and Dave Free's brand. think there's a lot of opportunity for us to get our message out through other brands that, don't make phones but believe philosophically in the value of taking back control of one's time. And I think that was a great example of that. You Kendrick felt strongly that smartphones

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were not a great thing to have in your young creative life, that it was probably a distraction and taking you not only like time away, but that comparison problem that happens so much. And so, you know, there was a really great synergy there and I, we might do something again in the future or perhaps there's other brands that it might make sense to kind of co-sign and help us to get the word out in new and meaningful ways. So.

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Siara (1:06:17)

Mmm.

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Joe (1:06:39)

think that's something we're always thinking about too.

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Siara (1:06:41)

Very cool. What a powerful partnership. a Kendrick fan, so that caught my attention. Well, this has been one of my favorite conversations this season. Thank you so much for joining the Logout Podcast. We really appreciate it.

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Joe (1:06:46)

We are as well. We're really grateful for that one.

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My genuine pleasure. Thank you.

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