#005: Can AI Companion Bots Replace Real Friends? Danielle Jackson, The Friendship Expert, Weighs In

Danielle Jackson (00:02)
if you couldn't post your birthday party, what kind of birthday gathering would you have? Would you be okay with going with the one friend and just getting pizza and a margarita? would that satisfy your soul? But when you think about posting pictures of it, now suddenly you're looking at the friend you're with and what you're wearing and where you

Siara (00:07)
Hmm.

I was off of Instagram for almost two years. And I still ask myself, did this make my friends feel less connected to me? Did this make me seem more distant to them? Or could it have been the best thing that ever happened to my friendships

Danielle Jackson (00:32)
My issue with us using the word friends, virtual friend, because of the definition of friend. A friendship is reciprocal. That bot or whatever it is, it has to be there because you're paying the monthly fee for it to be there. friendship is us mutually contributing. It's there to serve you. You're not there to serve

Siara Singleton (00:49)
Hey, welcome to the Logout Podcast.

Siara Singleton (00:51)
Today we're delving into a topic that feels both deeply personal and universally relevant, friendship. When I was a kid, my space was a thing and it had this feature called top friends. You'd actually rank your friends publicly on your profile, which in hindsight is so problematic and childish.

I'm not even sure if the older kids or teens were using this. I'm sure the adults weren't, but my friends and I were, and it felt significant at the time. I would change that list as often as the wind blew, just promoting or demoting people based on how I felt that day. So was pretty trivial on my end, but on the other end, I do think it kind of shaped how I saw my friendships and how I measured my place in someone's life.

It probably even contributed to how I interpreted my own self-worth because I was impressionable.

to today and while the top friends lists have seemingly gone away, I don't think that feeling of being ranked and measured has really disappeared. I think it's just evolved and become more subtle. Now, instead of top friends lists, they've got Snap Stories, Finstas, follower accounts, just this constant stream of curated social signals.

that remind us of where we stand. And sure, that's going to be a different magnitude based on how long social media has been in your life. So I do see this naturally impacting young people a bit more intensely.

like for instance, when I first joined TikTok, I noticed that friendship was a really hot topic on TikTok. Maybe that speaks to my algorithm. It's something I find interesting, but.

I do think Gen Z is redefining friendship culture in ways that are really refreshing. I also think some of them are a little unsettling. you know me, instead of jumping to blame the users, I'm looking at the platforms and I'm asking, what exactly did you engineer here? Because it's supposed to be social media. And I feel like I just keep seeing more young people who are lonely and more who are feeling disconnected.

We're also seeing people of all ages turning to AI bots for companionship. And I think, yeah, in some contexts it can be helpful, but it's important to ground ourself and remember that we're talking about apps and algorithms made of nothing but lines of code designed to simulate friendship, when in the background their main goal is to turn a profit. So it's just very Black Mirror to me.

And it's not just that, it's the less dramatic stuff too. It's the quiet ways that social media can complicate friendships. They can make us feel out of the loop or just breed miscommunication. And so yeah, as with every episode, I'm a little concerned. And so I thought, who could I bring on the pod to explore this kind of complex interplay between friendship and the digital world? Well.

If you Google friendship expert, a woman named Danielle Byard Jackson will come up and that's exactly who we'll get to talk to today. Now I didn't find Danielle on a Google search. I actually came across her on Instagram. She shares so much amazing, accessible and impactful advice that people can use in their friendships today. She just published her book, Fighting for our Friendships, the Science and Art of Conflict and Connection in Women's Relationships. She's a friendship coach, a speaker.

and someone who focused on how women in particular can build, maintain, and mend friendships.

But even if you're not a woman, think if you have social media and you interact with your friends on social media, then what she has to say in this episode is gonna be relevant for you. We dive into everything from digital body language to friendship boundaries to how she feels about AI companion bots. I want you to think of people in your life who could really use this episode. Maybe it's a younger person experimenting with a digital companion bot.

or a friend you felt distant from because digital communication has kind of muddied the waters a bit. Maybe it's just you. Maybe you're feeling a little more disconnected than you'd like to admit. And that would be ridiculously normal because loneliness is an epidemic right now. And it's as risky to your health as smoking. So it's important for us all.

So let's meet our new friend, Danielle.

Siara (04:50)
welcome to the Logout Podcast.

Danielle Jackson (04:52)
Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here.

Siara (04:54)
Yeah, we're so excited to have you here. You are known as the internet's friendship expert. You help women build new friendships, strengthen existing ones, even rekindle old connections. I've enjoyed learning from your insights. I personally use some of your advice. So today I'm just excited to pick your brain about the role of technology, social media, our devices and friendships because we're living within a loneliness epidemic right now. Many experts

the digital realm as a major factor.

So I think this is a really important conversation.

Danielle Jackson (05:26)
I see all the things that you see. I see those issues too. So I'm excited to unpack them together.

Siara (05:30)
Yes. So I just want to start out with this year you published your book, Fighting for our Friendships, the Science and Art of Conflict and Connection in Women's Relationships, which is really exciting. So you know all about the challenges that many women are dealing with in their friendships today. I'm curious, do you feel that digital communication is impacting how women handle conflict in friendships? Is this technology making it harder or maybe easier to resolve these differences?

Danielle Jackson (05:56)
Yeah, so

I do think social

digitization of relationships has certainly made things more complicated. I don't believe those complications are exclusive to women's relationships, but I do see how it might uniquely impact the way we connect with one another. We already have such, know, people often say we have like an unspoken language and there are unspoken rules and, you know, sometimes we say women have a sixth sense because we can intuit certain things. And I feel like while that is powerful in some ways, it can get really complicated.

Siara (06:18)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle Jackson (06:26)
when you throw in a digital form of communication. One book I often recommend to people is a book called Digital Body Language by Erica Dewan and she talks about how there are so many things that the digital process that impacts the way the message you

communicated was received. And I'll end with this. I've had so many sessions where quite literally women are pulling up their phones and saying like, okay, so let me walk you through what she said and what I meant. And there's just, it can be really complicated just trying to communicate that way. So I do think social media can help us connect with long distance friends. It certainly helps in mobilizing certain groups and friendships and keeping us in touch, but it definitely can complicate matters as well.

Siara (06:50)
Mm.

Yeah, it definitely brings up the question of digital etiquette. Digital body language is a great new term that I'm excited to think about a little bit more. But in terms of digital etiquette with our friends, it feels like we all have different standards and different ideas of what's OK and what's not OK and what different things mean. Do you have any advice for the audience of like at least how to maybe talk to our friends about what it means when you might send a certain word or emoji how quickly should I be responding to text or expected to respond?

What is being a polite friend digitally look like?

Danielle Jackson (07:42)
Yeah, so I'll say two things because we can get into specifics of like these six things you need to discuss, but I feel like two guiding thoughts could be this. The first is friendships are likely the most ambiguous relationships you will ever have. In every other context, we kind of know how this is supposed to go. We know the terms and conditions. If I'm your girlfriend, I kind of know what I'm supposed to do here. But in friendships,

Everybody's different. We have different definitions and expectations and there's no right or wrong way to do friendship or qualify someone as a friend. That should motivate us to articulate as much as possible. Your job in friendship should be to reduce the gray area as much as possible. So how can you front load the experience by saying like, yeah, I'm more of a texting girl. I don't really do the phone call thing, right? Like we have the space and permission to negotiate that and other relationships at your

Siara (08:19)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle Jackson (08:36)
job, you're having like a performance review, you're talking through, you know, how you're doing your progress in romantic relationships. It's totally normal to say, okay, babe, I'm not feeling connected. This is what I'm looking for. But in friendships, I think a lot of us, might not admit it, but we subscribe to the idea that if you're my friend, you should just know I shouldn't have to say that. And that's just not true, nor is it fair. So to say, actually, group texts, you know, stress me out. So you can call me on the weekends, girl. Like it can be playful, but

Siara (08:54)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle Jackson (09:05)
Sharing with people, this is the kind of experience I enjoy. What do you enjoy? And we can negotiate from there. So reducing ambiguity is really important. And then also, as soon as you make the assumption that how you think is how they think, that's a huge relationship killing myth. So while you think it might be rude to take a week to respond to texts, for somebody else, they feel like it makes them feel anxious that you expect a text.

the same day, the same hour, right? So people have different relationships with tech and then of course that's going to infiltrate our relationships with one another. And I think just holding space for that can make all the difference.

Siara (09:42)
Yeah, I think the texting conversation makes me think of read receipts and how I personally had turned off read receipts years ago because I noticed it causes some weird feelings in different situations, friendships, relationships, family. But it also brings up the larger question of almost

for lack of a better term, digital surveillance in friendships now between sharing location services and seeing read receipts. Do you think that having more visibility into what's going on with our friends digitally, this constant sort of oversight is affecting trust or inciting anxiety in modern friendships?

Danielle Jackson (10:22)
You know...

I'm not sure, but I will say this on an individual level because culturally and societally, I'm still thinking through that because it is a phenomenon. having shared locations on and some women are like, you know, like I see the benefit, you know, if you're a single woman, this is the person who knows your whereabouts, right? So I get it and I really do. I think on an individual level, I would always encourage people to think through what is the purpose for you and be honest with yourself. What is the purpose of having on read receipts? What is the purpose of sharing

What is the function of that for you? Is it because you already lean toward being a little anxious and you want to know all the things? Is it already because you have some trust issues and paranoia and so you're using these as ways to measure their loyalty and investment? So what's the point of having all of this stuff on and watching all of her Instagram stories, reading the subtext of who she's with?

Siara (11:11)
Yes.

Danielle Jackson (11:21)
If you took that away, what would come up for you? I think that's what's worth exploring because it can add unnecessary complications even though it affords certain benefits and that's for us to weigh the costs and benefits of those features.

Siara (11:36)
Yeah, and I think...

I mean, I talk about social media a lot on the podcast and one of the very obvious side effects that we all sort of accept as a truth is that there is the constant comparison effect, which can negatively impact our mental health. So when it comes to friendships, you

these instances where women's friendships are being measured by maybe how often they post each other or how often they're hanging out. Maybe even the FOMO thing happens where you see someone hanging out and you're thinking, why wasn't I invited? Should I have been invited? Is this normal?

I think that is kind of part of the constant oversight conversation. But I'm wondering, like, have you seen instances where women's friendships suffer because they're measuring what does their social media look like in relation to me? How does this reflect on me as a person, as their friend?

Danielle Jackson (12:24)
100%.

Yes, 100%. Now, I don't want to vilify comparing because and I know that's not what you're doing, but you know, I know sometimes like, comparison comparison to some degree from like a sociological standpoint, you would have to you have to compare. So for me to even determine what the norms are in this community, what's okay to do, what's not, am I on track in life? I'm putting my head on a swivel and I'm looking at other people. Okay, she looks like everyone's doing this. This must be the safe thing to do here. You know, so to some degree to even survive in a society.

You have to look at what people are doing. What's acceptable? What's not? What are the emerging trends like that makes sense and is wise to some degree? however, I do think it can be Really detrimental to our friendship journey if I'm trying to determine okay. Well, how often are other people hanging out? Well gosh, she has a friend group. I don't have a friend group my gosh, they're posting and celebrating their 20 years of friendship. Hold on a second. Are we all?

Siara (13:05)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle Jackson (13:25)
having 20 year long friendships, I only have a five year friendship. you know, well my god, she had, 17 girls at her birthday dinner. Like I only had two girls at my birthday dinner. You know, so there's so much noise. There's so much chatter. And we, I think for some of us, especially those who are very plugged in digitally, I think sometimes you can lose touch with what is real and what is healthy, right? So yes, that woman may have had 17 people at her birthday dinner. Great.

for her. What are the meanings you're assigning to the things that you're observing? Does that mean to you she is more lovable? She is more popular? She is more successful? You know, what does that mean to you? What have you assigned to it? I think those are the broader questions that it might be worth asking. And if you find that it's a little too chaotic and so much noise that you can't hear yourself, and I'm a person of faith, so if I can't hear other voices spiritually because I'm so plugged into the social trends, that's a problem. I

have to interrogate my personal relationship with social media, the accounts I follow, the time I spend, and how it's dictating the choices that I make in my very real behind-the-scenes relationships.

Siara (14:33)
Do you think that before social media is sort of...

know, displaying of their friendship statuses and whatever that might look like. Do you think it was easier for people to accept what their friendship makeup looks like to say, yeah, I have, you know, two or three close friends and I'm happy with that and maybe easier before social media became a thing. And now it's like I might have been happy, back then before social media if I hadn't had something to compare it to. But now I'm sort of wondering, like, is this a me thing? Is this a preference?

Do you think it would have been different or do you think there would have always been a way for someone to sort of compare?

Danielle Jackson (15:11)
There's always way to compare, whether it's television or your favorite friend series, because friends, people often use as a touchstone of friend groups. I mean, that existed before social media, but I had friendships in the before times. I remember signing up for Facebook a year before college. So I remember being friends with people before going out to the club. At that time, I was into it, but going out to the club and realizing, let's bring our digital camera so we can post these albums.

Siara (15:36)
You

Danielle Jackson (15:41)
on Facebook later. Before, I did not have any brain cells dedicated to documenting what I'm doing to show later. We were just wearing tacky...

business formal outfits in the club and sweating and dancing and not thinking about how to package this later for others. So people know I had a good time and I have friends. It just wasn't a thought. so it is kind of disheartening sometimes to know that it's something we keep looking toward as a guide to measure how we're doing.

And I think it's almost a cycle because not only do we sometimes look and I know I'm speaking very generally, not only do we sometimes look to social to see what are others doing, what's normal, what should a birthday party look like? But also, I think on the other side of that, you're performing. So when you do have relationships, you're thinking about, you know, having a wedding, having a birthday party through the lens of how it's going to look to others later instead of just doing the thing. And so recently on social media, on Instagram, I remember

posting something about

if you couldn't post your birthday party, what kind of birthday gathering would you have? Would you be okay with going with the one friend and just going to the bookstore and getting pizza and a margarita? Like would that satisfy your soul? But when you think about posting pictures of it, now suddenly you're looking at the friend you're with and what you're wearing and where you

Siara (16:51)
Hmm.

Danielle Jackson (17:07)
It's just, it's just, it's so tricky. And think any of us are a

It's like so, you know, in our culture, it's hard sometimes to make those distinctions.

Siara (17:13)
Yeah.

That brings me to...

a big question for

myself. I was off of Instagram for almost two years. Now I'm kind of on and off depending on how I feel. And I still ask myself, did this make my friends feel less connected to me? Did this make me seem more distant to them? Or could it have been the best thing that ever happened to my friendships as I

still maintained some extremely rich friendships I'm undecided, but I'm curious if you feel that choosing to stay off social media could have a real impact on the

quality and depth of friendships. Does being offline make us more disconnected or does it open the door for maybe even more meaningful in-person connections?

Danielle Jackson (17:54)
You know the research on

social media and the role it plays in friendships is kind of there's the results are kind of finding different things. But one study that I really like, they call it the rich get richer effect. And they found that people who are already social, they have strong social skills, they're likeable with others, that social media makes them quote unquote, richer, socially richer. They're using the internet and social media to gather their friends. They're using it to supplement our interactions when we can't see each other.

for a month and it helps me keep in touch with you, it's it's making them socially richer but

So if you already have poor social skills, you already have anxiety around meeting people, being on social media makes it worse. And so I don't want to point to social media as the root of all our ails, but I do think it has across the board impacts. For example, for a lot of us, we do have a feeling of, I'm keeping in touch with my friends. I know what's going on because I'm watching all of their posts. And that is not true. Like I'd like to think I'm an honest person, but like, yes, I'm curating.

What I put up and what I choose not to like my real friends know what's really happening in my marriage and in motherhood They really know I'm not gonna opt to put that online I'm just not so it can trick you into thinking you're keeping up with your friends. It can Give you information that you don't want to have a couple weeks ago I had a client and she was off of Instagram for a year I just got back on and she said, you know I'm seeing my friends hang out with certain people that they told me they don't like but

then

you're liking her posts and like why and she was like I never had I haven't had that thought in my brain for a year but now I have extra data that is just unnecessary to my life and so you know it's it's tricky but I will say if you are looking to get off social media and pull away it is going to impact your friendships it definitely is but there's a way to have more life-giving friendships without Instagram you would have to be very thoughtful and intentional about how are you keeping up with friends do you guys have a social

ritual, hey, every Friday, let's FaceTime for 30 minutes. And that's what we do. Are you meeting friends and keeping up with friendships solely based on social media? And if that were removed, how are you maintaining friendships? How are you forming new connections? I think that's something people have to ask themselves.

Siara (20:16)
Yeah, I would say also to anyone listening who is thinking about either even just taking a step back from social media or getting rid of it entirely. It's interesting to see what you value because one thing that I did love in that time was that I got to hear about the most important updates of my friends lives in person and also share those updates in person, which I realized I felt so much more connection with them when I got to do that face to face versus like, okay, they liked the post. Okay.

they sent this to me and they sent me a DM and it's nice, but that in person satisfaction of sharing, you know, big news and hearing the big news, I did really like that. So I will put that out to the audience, I do want, so I did find you originally on TikTok. So I know that, you know, kind of the ins and outs of how TikTok works and

I want to talk about something that I noticed on TikTok, which is friendship drama, quickly becoming public information. I do, you know, recall the era of sub tweets where drama was, you know, sort of least subtly put out to everyone to see maybe on Twitter or Facebook and otherwise. But it seems like we've reached an entirely new level where people post.

the context from their side of the story, of course, of friendship, diagreements almost looking for validation that there's something wrong, even sometimes advice. They're almost crowdsourcing advice from others to say like, this is weird, right? Or is it not weird at all? Is it just me? Then hordes of people will get emotionally involved. They'll follow the story. They'll wait for the update. And I think on one hand, it's nice to have that womanhood and a source for that advice if it's something that you lack. But then on the other hand, is that the problem itself? Is that something that people are

in this age of social media. So I'm definitely wondering what you make of that and considering maybe some of the risks where someone specifically gets doxed. They don't get to tell their side of the story and I've seen things really go south in that situation. So I'm concerned about it and I really am curious what you make of it.

Danielle Jackson (22:08)
Mm-hmm.

So this might be a hot take and I'm gonna say this unequivocally, because normally I'm very like, you know, I could see both sides and here, you know, we have to consider people's perspectives and I do. have to, people have different things going on that might drive them to make those choices, right? I'm gonna say this very clearly. I think that comes down to a couple things. This trend of sharing friendship drama online, something that makes me...

a confused, I'll use that word is we're sharing screenshots like this person texting me this, hey, look at it everybody. I feel very strongly about that. I think this trend comes down to a couple of things. The first is I think a lot of them need friends in real life and I don't want to sound judgmental. Do you have people in real life you could go to as a trusted sounding board? Hey, I'm going through this. What do you think? Am I crazy or was that kind of that was kind of shady, right? Do you have relationships in real life with people you

Siara (22:48)
Mm-hmm.

⁓

Danielle Jackson (23:09)
trust and can go to to give you wise counsel. That's number one. Because I think that would take away from I need to hear some feedback. So let me go to the internet. Do you have friends in real life? The second thing would be, do we have models of what healthy conflict looks like? So if I'm seeing everybody take their drama online and I have drama, then it's like, okay, well, this is what we do. So do you even have examples of what alternative

look

like, which takes me to my next point of a lack of true vulnerability. Because true vulnerability is you navigating that with the person, like behind the scenes and saying, okay, what did you mean by that? And I'm so upset by what you said. that's genuinely vulnerable because vulnerability means you're taking a risk of rejection, right? But in social media, I mean, you're chopping up the bits, are, you...

Siara (23:50)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle Jackson (24:07)
It's just really tricky and sticky to me. I'm just so against going online with your personal stuff. And it's because of what you just said. think a lot of times, and I think there's a psychological phrase for this concept and it escapes me right now, where you just, maybe it might be an extension of the spotlight effect. I don't know. But where you are just focused on, I'm gonna tell my story and you're picturing certain people watching, right? Because we always see that video after a video goes viral and they're like, whoa,

Siara (24:34)
Yeah.

Danielle Jackson (24:37)
I didn't expect that to that video to blow up like that and I think a lot of them didn't you in your mind are talking to like 10 people you forget that a Ton of people have access to it have different Context of it and have different intentions which goes back to talking to wise counsel that you trust I'm putting this in the hands of people who don't care about me who don't know about me who have malicious Intentions for me who are determined to misunderstand what I'm saying and now it's messy now people have my information now people didn't take it the way

that I thought because I've certainly seen videos where girls are like, can you believe this girl did this? And they're expecting people to say, yeah, you're right. And then they're like, actually, you suck. You're the I mean, and it didn't go how you thought. So sometimes it's difficult to think past the 30 minutes of anger you feel right now. What might happen a week from now after that video stays public, which takes me to my last point of a lack of emotional regulation, because in this moment, I feel like calling her out in this

Siara (25:15)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle Jackson (25:37)
I want people to know that you are awful and I'm upset and so in this moment I'm gonna post it is a Psychological and emotional skill to say I feel like doing this right now, but I won't I feel this way right now, but let me interrogate that what what's really going on Okay, I'm not angry. I'm actually hurt is a skill and I think between not having real-life friends I think between having a lack of models of healthy conflict and I think a lack of emotional regulation or

attributing to the trend of sharing personal vulnerable experiences in very public and unsafe places.

Siara (26:14)
Yeah, and I would definitely

ask people to think before they post about those situations, even if the person is clearly in the wrong from your perspective, what side effects that could have for their life. They make a mistake between you and them, and then the entire internet gets to know, they get doxxed their entire character is now being judged online. And I don't think most people really want that for their friends or their ex-friends. So think about where can you sort

that

advice even if it's going to a forum and seeing has anyone else dealt with this. But that actually brings me to my next question and this is something that you have talked about in depth before is the introduction of the AI companions. are not real individuals. They're trained on, we're not even 100 % sure what they're trained on, but these are companies that are introducing a bot for people to talk to if they don't feel like.

they

want to talk to someone in their life or maybe they're actually not available, they don't have access to someone in their life to talk to about it. So what is your opinion on these? Do you think there are major risks? Do you think there are benefits?

Danielle Jackson (27:23)
You know, so the research does find that there are benefits and that people do say that they

after engaging with these virtual quote unquote friends. I don't even want to use that word. These virtual...

like things. don't know. So people are saying there's and who wants to invalidate their experience. They're saying that, yeah, I was going through a tricky time or trying to figure something out. I took this problem to this

Siara (27:40)
Yeah.

Danielle Jackson (27:53)
this digital entity and it spit out some feedback or questions that kind of coach me through it and I feel better. So that's

My issue with that is us using the word friends, virtual friend, because of the definition of friend. A friendship is reciprocal. That bot or whatever it is, it has to be there because you're paying the monthly fee for it to be there. Okay. A friendship is us mutually contributing. It's there to serve you. You're not there to serve

But with a friendship, we're both here for eachother

Okay, it's monetized which gets into some ethics stuff because if you want to continue to have this quote-unquote relationship You've got to keep paying. Well, I don't know any friendship true friendship like that It is not empathetic It performs empathy very well

but the definition of empathy is I can relate to you because I've been through it myself and it has not. But it's saying things that are, gosh, that must be so hard. Wow, you know, I am sorry to hear that. What do you need? It feels like it's giving me emotional support, but by definition, it cannot show me empathy, right? And so I think the trick becomes when you start to replace in person.

Siara (28:46)
Mmm.

Danielle Jackson (29:06)
relationships where you find yourself preferring the digital entity over friendships, that is where there's an issue. And I'll end with this. recently did a podcast episode about that on the Friend Forward podcast. And somebody DMed me afterwards and said, I just moved to New York. It's incredibly lonely. I did go and create like a digital entity, digital friend. And I found myself using it more and more because it's just there.

Siara (29:33)
Yeah.

Danielle Jackson (29:34)
talking

that do to my goals of having in real life friends and complicated relationships with real humans. And so I just think that's all we can ask is for people to interrogate their behavior and to consistently remind themselves, what do I really want out of life and friendship? And am I okay with the fact that real friendships are going to be complicated, messy, I'm not gonna get what I want when I want, but it's real and that's what I'm looking for. So there's a lot going on, but I just think as soon as we start preferring or replicating

Siara (30:10)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle Jackson (30:34)
I think that's when it becomes dangerous as opposed to like an occasional supplement for emotional support. I think that's where it gets a little tricky.

Siara (30:43)
Yeah, and then it could get even trickier when it seems to be working well, at least from our perspective, and then you start to expect, you know, real life humans to act like this extremely reliable bot, and you just don't even know what the standards are for human communication, which is not ever going to be perfect.

So that's an example of maybe something that is not going to be strengthening our ability to create real life connections. I'm curious about some of the technology that is their specific purpose. The Bumble BFFs of the world. What do you think an app like that where it's almost like the dating apps for friendships, do you think that they're effective for building real friendships or do you have any advice on how people can use it more intentionally?

Danielle Jackson (31:29)
Yeah, so I was actually their spokesperson for about a year for Bumble for Friends and I do not partner with any brand I don't believe in or I think they're just kind of, I don't do it. Bumble, my experience was very positive. They are in those rooms figuring out how to help people build real relationships. So it felt very real and genuine to me. I mean, I understand at the end of the day, it's a company, but it felt very genuine to me and they were doing the work behind the scenes, right? I'll say this about

Siara (31:44)
Mm.

Danielle Jackson (31:59)
friendship apps and swiping for friends and all that. I think it is an exceptional tool for building or finding initial connections. It makes sense to me, right? If our lifestyles have changed in such a way where we're not out and about as much, then we might say, my gosh, I think I have decreased chances of meeting like-minded people out in the real world. So I want to supplement my in-person efforts with an app that's going to show me, hey, there's a girl who lives three blocks from you, who loves.

you know, working out and talking about all these intellectual things just like you. Like that makes sense to me. It's not desperate. It's resourceful. I think the trick becomes this is the only way I'm finding connection is through this app. But I've seen it be helpful for people with chaotic schedules like nurses or people who are new to a city. It feels very practical for them. New moms who are like, I can't get outside. It's very practical for them.

The trick is to get as in-person as possible as soon as possible. So after we exchange a couple messages to feel safe and to feel like, okay, I kind of get this girl's vibe, as soon as humanly possible, let's go to the park. Let's go grab a mocktail. Let's go do this art class immediately. And I think that is the trick. The complaints I've heard about people saying like, I don't know. I think people are not navigating it well. Maybe they're not building great profiles. They're being negative instead of positive. They're not showing, you know, positive.

Siara (32:58)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Danielle Jackson (33:23)
of images of themselves. So there's a way to do it right to maximize your opportunities and experience. But for those who are doing it positively and getting in person as soon as possible, I think those people are having positive experiences and establishing very real friendships.

Siara (33:37)
Thank you for that advice. so we're wrapping up here. I want to know, first of all, where can we learn more about your work?

Danielle Jackson (33:43)
So all the things live at betterfemalefriendships.com. It's just a space where we are sharing resources and information to help women.

enjoy more satisfaction in their friendships. And I'm just so excited to see more intentional conversations like this about friendship, because this is so much more than about like having some people to go to brunch with on Saturdays. Like, I can't stress that enough. Like, it's not just about do you have a squad to hang with and to post some cute pictures with. This is not that. You have research out of Harvard who's conducted the longest running study on happiness finding that the number one thing

Siara (34:07)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle Jackson (34:22)
that impacts your overall health and well-being is the quality of your relationships. That should give us some sense of urgency to pour into this. What do I need to be a better friend? Where do I need to find strong relationships? It's a matter of life and death and I don't think I'm exaggerating or being dramatic. So I think for people who are ready to take that leap and get curious and intentional, think stuff like this, a friendship coach and friendship websites and podcasts are a good place to start.

Siara (34:49)
And then I ask everyone this, what are you logging out of this year and what are you logging into? However you may interpret that.

Danielle Jackson (34:56)
⁓ okay. Love that question. I think I am continuing to log out of hustle culture. And as a millennial, like we were raised on that, like you grind, you put in the hours and to post about all the things you're doing. And that is so, for so long has been so deeply tied to my identity as being a high achiever and crushing goals. And I am pulling away from that, which forces me to explore what else do I have to offer? What else brings me joy? And I'm experiencing

the joy of being present and of rest and slowing down and spending time with my people. And so that's something that I'm still presently learning and logging, present tense, logging out of and it's proven to be very fruitful.

Siara (35:43)
Yes, I'm right there with you on that. Okay. Well, thank you so much for joining us. We have learned so much and I'm really excited to see everything that you put out after this. I will add her socials here for everyone to follow you. everyone, thank you for being here and I will see you in the next episode.

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