#006: Tyler Rice on Why Work Feels Like a Group Chat You Can’t Leave

Tyler Rice (00:02)
techno stress, is the negative psychological relationship between people and new technologies. I like to think of as kind of the cognitive impacts of

digital technology and specifically kind of the digital overwhelm that we all feel when we're balancing so many different stimuli, whether that's work related

or frankly

Siara (00:20)
I was projected back to a moment where I was introduced to Slack for the first time, and the concept of having channels where people could talk about their different side projects and plant advice or their favorite music. Initially, I loved it. I still love it.

over time, after the novelty wore off, I felt like, this a distraction? Is this actually a little bit overwhelming for me?

Tyler Rice (00:42)
And I think that's really important to call out is that longer working hours are not correlative with increase in productivity. It is really about focusing and enhancing that focus.

Siara Singleton (00:52)
Happy Thursday, welcome back to the Logout Podcast. I have a confession. I'm a recovering workaholic

Siara Singleton (00:58)
and not in a ambitious way or a positive way, but in a deeply destructive way. And if you're anything like me or worse how I used to be, this might sound familiar. For the first couple years of my career, the moment I woke up, I was on. I would reach for my phone, which was usually by my bedside, peel my eyes open,

and essentially begin my work day. So I'm horizontal, in PJs, scrolling through email, catching up on Slack, checking Twitter and LinkedIn analytics, all under the banner of doing my job. Now I'm scanning headlines, figuring out what industry insights I want to bring with me to work that day. It felt efficient, like I was getting ahead of the day, but this was happening before I brushed my teeth, like before I drank water. So no, it wasn't efficient.

and it wasn't balanced. And a certain day came along where I just said no more. I'm pretty different now. My morning routine is mostly screenless. I try to get the good stuff in like meditation, working out, walking my dog before the impending scrolling begins now. And then I'm not, you know, much different from anyone else. I still have a ways to go with digital hygiene throughout my day and at work.

But the mornings itself made a profound difference in the way my brain works. And, you know, that shift didn't happen just because I suddenly developed better discipline. It happened because I started paying attention to how I felt. once I did, I noticed the mental clutter, the background anxiety, the constant self-induced pressure to respond, perform, and keep up, like, basically all hours of my waking day. It wasn't working. So I've been kind of exploring getting better and better at that. And

Granted, I've only really known office and work from home life, but I'm sure other jobs have similar challenges. So today, I wanted to bring on a guest who understands this perfectly. He's a digital wellness advocate, like many of my guests that I bring on, but his focus is specifically on the workplace.

Siara Singleton (02:54)
Tyler Rice is the founder of the Digital Wellness Institute, a public speaker, and the author of the new book, Tactical Disconnection, The Secret to Health, Happiness, and Productivity in an Always On World.

is at the intersection of behavioral science, workplace culture, and the modern attention economy. We will talk about the psychology of techno stress, bet you haven't heard that one before, the invisible costs of being always on, and why digital flourishing, not digital detoxing, might just be the new north star for productivity. He explains the business case for championing digital wellness at work.

This episode isn't about throwing your phone in a lake. It's about designing a digital life, especially at work, that doesn't quietly chip away or focus your energy or your sense of

building a startup or just holding it together behind 37 open tabs like me, this is a great one. Let's meet Tyler.

Siara (03:51)
Hello Tyler, welcome to the Logout Podcast.

Tyler Rice (03:54)
Well, thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to meet you.

Siara (03:56)
I'm so happy to have you here. You are tackling a topic that I feel like we all struggle with, but no one seems to have really any answers for, any actual framework to deal with it. And you're quite a trailblazer in the space. So I'm really excited to pick your brain So first and foremost, I just want to understand who is Tyler Rice, why digital wellness, and what's the journey that led you here?

Tyler Rice (04:18)
Yeah, well, big questions. Let's see. So I am a digital wellness innovator, educator, and technologist. My focus and background is and has always really been on the impact of technology on the human experience. So much of our experience as either employees or parents or students has been drastically upended by technology. while some may look at that with a negative mindset, I tend to look at that

and see what are the benefits, where can we derive all the positive aspects of this while also holding in reality the aspects that are in fact negative, right? And the whole idea and the whole concept that I'm trying to bring to the employee experience is this notion of digital flourishing, digital balance. How can we maximize all of these incredible benefits of technology while also learning to recognize and mitigate the affiliated harms? And I believe that

Siara (04:55)
Mm-hmm.

Tyler Rice (05:12)
the most productive, the happiest, healthiest people in the future are going to be those that can reach that balance, that can have that optimal state, that state of digital flourishing. And that is, who I am and what my interest is.

Siara (05:26)
Was there ever an alarm moment for you that said, can see a problem, I can see that a solution is needed, let me tackle or was it just a slow kind of roll into that?

Tyler Rice (05:38)
No, think for me in undergrad, I studied political science. And so for me, the alert really actually came from the broadening kind of sense of disinformation, the lack of the breakdown in communities, the breakdown in trust within communities and across diverse populations, and the growing sense of, I think, isolation and isolationist policies from a governmental perspective.

Siara (05:48)
Mm.

Tyler Rice (06:02)
me and my political scientist hat. But when you drill down and you think about the impacts on a micro level and the impacts that that has not only on us as individuals, but certainly our communities and yes, our businesses, the same impacts persist and they're not good. They're not healthy drivers for a flourishing life nor a flourishing business. And so for me, what I'm really focused on is the economic impact of a lack of digital balance, a lack of

Siara (06:05)
Haha.

Tyler Rice (06:28)
digital well-being within our personal lives that again on a macro level, organizational level, really leads to downstream costs and inefficiencies.

Siara (06:37)
So some of those costs and impacts, assume I've heard you mention the term techno stress in the past.

Now, that's a pretty new term for me, but I'm pretty sure I am techno stressed myself. So I just love to hear your definition of that and how that sort of relates to everything that you're working on.

Tyler Rice (06:54)
Yeah, yeah. So defined, you know, techno stress, is the negative psychological relationship between people and new technologies. And so if you think about this kind of like ergonomics, right, ergonomics is really defined as kind of the study of humans and the physical interactions that they have with technology. And again, the physical impacts of that technology. So if you are sitting for long periods of time or if you're scrunched over a phone like this, right, or the physical ramifications of that. Techno stress, I like to think of as kind of the cognitive impacts of

digital technology and specifically kind of the digital overwhelm that we all feel when we're balancing so many different stimuli, whether that's work related or personal related, or frankly

And again, the cognitive overload or impacts that that has, which results in a new form of stress and this kind of constant feeling of being always on. We feel, know, our parasympathetic nervous system always activated this constant state of fight or flight.

as soon as we wake up in the morning, right? And pretty much until we go to sleep. So that is how I like to think and how I think it is technically defined when we're thinking about techno stress.

Siara (07:52)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, digital overwhelm is like the perfect word to describe it for me. And I think I had an alarm moment at some point where I said, I have things in life that maybe cause some stress, but I could see that the devices in my life were a major, cause. so...

I wonder how long it actually took me to realize. Do you think that a lot of people are struggling with techno stress without even realizing it

Tyler Rice (08:26)
I do, do. though I don't think people don't recognize it, I think they do recognize it. I just don't think that they have a name to, they don't have the verbiage to name it. And so I like to often think about mental health and the notion of mental health and how it progressed over the past 120 some odd years to now a term that is commonplace. if I were to ask you how your mental health was and the year was,

Siara (08:35)
Mm-hmm.

Tyler Rice (08:50)
1958, right? What would you say? You'd probably have no conception, no idea, no framework from which to answer. I think the same actually holds true up until the 80s, the 80s and frankly into the 90s. It wasn't until 2001 that the World Health Organization actually dedicated one of their first issues to mental health. And so what we've really seen is this groundswell, this movement broadening understanding of digital, excuse me, of mental health.

Siara (08:58)
Mm-hmm.

Tyler Rice (09:17)
and the impacts of mental health over the past 24 years, 25 years. And I think digital wellness is along a similar trajectory. think, you know, from my own personal experience in the places I've had the pleasure of speaking, been at conferences in Saudi Arabia, in Lake Como, Italy, in Canada, here in the United States. And at these conferences, I often like to ask, you know, how digitally well are you? Or how digitally well

are your employees? And the answers I get are pretty funny. And I remember one gentleman, he thought very pensively and he looks back at me and he says, you know, I'm actually very digitally well. I said, that's amazing. Tell me how. He said, well, I just changed from a paper filing management system to a Google Drive. So I am feeling like super digitally well.

Siara (10:03)
Yeah

Tyler Rice (10:04)
And while it's actually, it's funny, but in reality, he's not wrong. mean, that is an aspect of digital wellness, right? If we're more productive, if we've got a great digital environment, that's awesome. That's exceptional. But what I'm trying to say is, I think we all struggle with the negative impacts associated with a lack of digital wellness, but we just don't yet have that framework or that verbiage to name it. And so while we all recognize it, we don't yet know how to address it or

how to associate that in our minds.

Siara (10:34)
I'm definitely about the generational differences of digital wellness as well. Do you think it's easier for,

X or millennials to recognize techno stress as opposed to maybe Gen Z or even Gen Alpha? I'm curious if.

The younger folk would be more attuned to the stress that they're feeling because mental health has been a lot more of conversation in their lives, or a little bit less because they're so used to having that technology around them all the time.

Tyler Rice (11:02)
So surprisingly, and we have the data to support this, I go to companies or we go to organizations and we help measure and assess their levels of digital balance, right? So the digital culture within the organization. And one of the things that we do in this survey is we assess generational differences in terms of digital overwhelm. And surprisingly, what I've found is that Gen Z, the younger generations are typically tied

for either the top most or the second top most digitally balanced generation in the workplace. Meaning that they are the most aware. They are the generation that recognizes most the impact of technology on their experience and they themselves have been made aware of it. Now, I think that differs so often from the perceptions that in particular older generations have on newer generations, newer entrants in the workforce.

Siara (11:32)
Wow.

Tyler Rice (11:51)
saying that they're always on their devices or they're always on social media. And I think it's also important, whether or not that is true, it's important to disassociate quantity of screen time with kind of quality and or our own understanding of the impact of that screen time on our mental health or on our experience. So what I find in the data is very much that the older generations in the workforce are often the least digitally well.

Siara (12:03)
Mmm.

Tyler Rice (12:17)
in part, think, because of their lack of recognition around the topic, right? Right now we see in high schools and in colleges across the United States and much of the world, a broad conversation around the impacts of technology on the student experience. And as those students transition into the workforce, they are going to be that much more aware, that much more prepared, I think, to manage the stressors that come with life and work in this always on state.

Siara (12:29)
Mmm.

that is definitely interesting. I would have thought the opposite. So that's great to hear. It's encouraging. So you went on to found the Digital Wellness Institute. I want to know all about the mission and then also what does that look like in practice when you're helping these companies optimize their workforces for digital wellness? What kinds of conversations are you having?

Tyler Rice (13:01)
Yeah.

We're having amazing conversations and ones that are, again, it's so cool for me to be at this table with leaders in HR or even in the C-suite and be able to, I think, speak to a lot of the challenges that they are all facing, yet challenges that they have not found a solution for. And by challenges, we're really talking about the increasing rate of organizational levels of burnout. We're talking about attrition, so people leaving the organization.

We're also talking about the increasing rates of and prevalence of mental health, whether that's ADHD or whether that's depression or anxieties, especially for those self-insured employers. Those are real costs that they are footing the bill for. So back to the beginning of question, the Digital Wellness Institute, we founded it and it has really become the world's leading research education.

and training organization that is focused specifically on this topic, this topic of digital wellness. And our mission in part is to really incorporate digital wellness into the existing frameworks of employee well-being. So if you think about your first job out of college or out of school and you think about the employee wellness benefits that were provided to you as an employee, so often

there are mental health initiatives, thankfully, right? So often there are financial health and financial wellness initiatives. We are advocating for the inclusion of digital wellness initiatives, especially for those organizations that are either entirely hybrid, entirely remote. But regardless of that, you know, any organization that has knowledge workers needs to care about digital well-being because digital culture

Siara (14:19)
Mm-hmm.

Tyler Rice (14:41)
It really is the organizational culture, especially for those workers that are communicating and working entirely behind a screen. So that is what we're doing. That is our mission. And the impact that we're seeing is, one that's profound. We're seeing organizations that are asking their employees about this topic. They're getting overwhelming amounts of feedback, largely positive in the sense that employees are so thankful that their companies are asking them about this issue.

Siara (15:10)
Mmm.

Tyler Rice (15:11)
They all are so thankful and appreciative that this is something that is being accounted for. This is being measured. This is being acted upon because again, in the last four years, I think since in particular the pandemic, everybody feels this. Every worker feels this or has felt this at one point, but to be asked about it and to be a part of the solution is something that employees are rewarding their employers for. And we're seeing that time and time again.

Siara (15:36)
That's awesome. definitely curious about the incentive companies have to look for solution like this. Is this something that they're realizing is an issue and finding organizations like the Digital Wellness Institute? how are they making the case to invest time and resources into something like that if it's not immediately obvious to them?

Tyler Rice (16:00)
Yeah, this is this is the billion dollar question, I think for anybody in this employee wellness space, because we're all making an argument about the benefits that can be derived from certain interventions, right? What I think is important to bring to the table when it comes to like specifically digital wellness initiatives in the workplace is the lack of efficacy or effectiveness of existing well being programs and

I saw this from my own personal experience when I worked in healthcare technology consulting right after college. And so the year was about 2016, 2017, and we had the opportunity to really diagnose an organization's level of mental health and behavioral health. We analyzed their claims data and we ran that through a predictive claims analytics engine. And we essentially mapped out what the number one cost was gonna be for those clients.

Siara (16:26)
Yes.

Tyler Rice (16:54)
Over the next 10 years and a resounding 99.9 % of the time, the number one cost was predicted to be employee mental health. So the second part of our job then was to say, OK, what can we do? What sort of initiatives can we introduce into your well being services to address that issue to bring it down to mitigate it and the risk that you are going to face if it is left unaddressed and those initiatives? While nice to haves, I felt really missed the.

Siara (17:03)
Mm.

Tyler Rice (17:24)
aspect of what was causing this work related to satisfaction and this burgeoning increase in mental health. So if you think about something like a meditation app, right, or a fancy gym membership, or, you know, anything like that, anything that is traditionally defined as employee wellness benefit programming, they're only so useful as the time that employees have to use them, right? And I think so often we feel that time is our most scarce commodity.

Siara (17:33)
Mm.

Mmm.

Tyler Rice (17:51)
We don't

feel like there are enough hours in the day. We don't feel like we have a workplace culture that grants us permission to disconnect after hours or, you know, tactically at times during the day to do deep work or to actually leverage these benefits. And so what has grown is a vast inefficiency, I think, in the employee well-being market and, speaking, maybe a distrust in the market as well due to low utilization rates and

efficacy as charted by a reduction in claims or increase in productivity. And the reality is that we're just so overwhelmed right now. The way in which we're working does not allow us to take advantage of these benefits. And so for us, we are really making an argument about the effectiveness and the efficiency of the existing benefits and reframing this around digital wellness. And what we're finding is that employees would much rather have

Siara (18:41)
Yeah.

Tyler Rice (18:45)
a healthy digital culture, one that allows them the ability to disconnect on nights, weekends, holidays, that respects their digital boundaries, that implements communication charter workshops within their teams, that educates them on the importance of digital wellness and digital flourishing, rather than a stipend for a meditation app that they're never going to use. And so that is kind of the argument that we're making and that we're finding has landed with a lot of our partners.

Siara (19:09)
Yeah, So you've mentioned digital flourishing a couple of times and that is something that the Digital Wellness Institute actually coined. So it sounds like the antithesis of techno stress.

What is it and how does it differ from the current state of digital wellness that you generally observe in employees today?

Tyler Rice (19:29)
Yeah, so

defined digital flourishing and is the optimal state of health, well-being and productivity that each individual using technology is capable of achieving. And so what I think is most powerful about this idea, this notion is that it applies a positive psychological framework to this conversation about techno stress and digital overwhelm. And why that's important Sarah is for a number of reasons. But first, let's just think about

You know, if you are made aware of digital wellness and why it's important, it is very likely that you are made aware of the negative impacts of technology, right? There's so many researchers right now. Jonathan Haight is one of them who wrote the book, The Anxious Generation. So many parents that have read that book and so many students. And while the book is brilliant and it says a lot of great things, it is in

Siara (20:05)
Mm-hmm.

Tyler Rice (20:20)
in construct it is it is broadly speaking negative right it's talking about the negative impact of technology on our mental health and everything like that. And on the other side of the equation we have researchers at Oxford University and across the world that are actually looking at that data and saying no it's not binary it's not that you know technology causes mental health issues or is always negative right there are so many benefits that we can derive from technology and so.

Why this is important is because now there is a spectrum, right? There are people on one side of the equation that are saying, you know what, life would be so much better if I didn't have any technology at all, right? I'm going to be somebody that goes on a digital detox and I'll see you in six months. On the right side of the equation then, we have people that maybe are saying, you know what, no, all of this is great. I am going to be always connected. I'm going to be kind of the first person that's going to adopt Mark Zuckerberg's new

Siara (20:59)
Yeah.

Tyler Rice (21:16)
eyeglasses and I'm gonna wear them everywhere I go, right? And so therefore we have people that may fall into kind of the digital overuse overwhelm, maybe even I don't like to use the term addiction, but you know, fall into that right side of the equation. Digital flourishing is right in the center of that. Again, we're maximizing all of those amazing benefits while recognizing and mitigating the affiliated harms. And why it's so important though to focus on the positives is because it is that much more motivating when we're talking about behavioral change.

We need to focus on why and how we feel connected when we use technology, right? We need to understand when we are our most productive when we use technology and leverage technology assistance to increase our productivity. We need to understand the ways in which technology and maybe our home office setup from an ergonomic perspective increases our feelings of wellbeing, increases our physical health, right? And so all of this is just so important because when we think about it only in terms of the negative,

We have this fear-based approach that really isn't motivating. And it leads us to feeling like there's nothing we can do to be better, to better ourselves, to better our businesses. so digital flourishing, again, is that positive psychological approach to a really an empowerment-oriented approach to managing our digital lives.

Siara (22:23)
Mm-hmm.

I'm curious if you can give us some examples of positive things companies can be doing and providing. Maybe not necessarily stop doing, but start doing.

Tyler Rice (22:41)
Mm.

Siara (22:42)
But then

I definitely want to know the things that companies should probably not do anymore as well. But let's lean into the positive, because I'm really interested in that.

Tyler Rice (22:50)
Yeah, let's frame the opportunity in terms of a positive, right? So instead of taking a fear-based approach about what organizations stand to lose from a lack of digital wellness or poor digital culture, let's talk about the benefits that companies can derive from having a healthy digital culture. I think the first is evident, right? It's in terms of employee attraction and retention. I think if you ask anybody that is of typically a younger generation, and more broadly speaking, I would say any worker in the workplace right now,

They want to work for an organization that respects their digital boundaries that promotes and entrenches a sense of digital balance and more broadly speaking, a sense of digital belonging as well. I think when we talk about digital wellness, we talk about the three B's in the workplace. We talk about balance, belonging and boundaries. And belonging is one of the most important parts, right? It is what we're all searching for, I think in life, but specifically when we are not

able to form relationships in the workplace in person, the extent to which we within our organizations virtually can still create a sense of community, can still find that network, build that network, because that is so advantageous for the worker, for the employee. So I think it's in terms of employee attraction and retention. It's certainly in terms of employee productivity. The amount of productive hours right now that are being lost due to

Siara (23:50)
Mm-hmm.

Tyler Rice (24:11)
a lack of digital wellness, either from our personal usage habits or broadly speaking from our overwhelm and our burnout that we're facing is astronomical. And so if we can have a healthier digital culture within our organization, we can increase productivity. And ironically, it does not come from working longer hours, right? It comes from working in predefined and sustained bursts of creative, productive and distraction-free working hours. That's when we are our most productive.

Siara (24:28)
Yeah.

Tyler Rice (24:38)
We're seeing that in even the four day work week movement, right?

And I think that's really important to call out is that longer working hours are not correlative with increase in productivity. It is really about focusing and enhancing that

And the third place I'll say is in terms of, again, employee mental health, right? When we have a workplace that respects our digital boundaries, we are that much more happy to go to work. We're that much more focused when we are at work.

And when we have healthier digital practices for our own digital lives as well, we're able to push away some of those things that might be distracting us, might be impeding on our own mental health. If you think about even the boundaries that we have before we go to bed and first thing when we wake up, if we were to replace 30 minutes of scrolling before bed or again, waking up and looking at our email or our social media, the first thing we wake up, we can actually prolong some of the states of

of comfort that we have when we are sleeping and when we're waking up and really evade that persistent feeling of that fight or flight response, the moment that we wake up and the activation of our parasympathetic nervous system. And that's really important in the long run from a mental health perspective and a productivity standpoint. So in conclusion, it really is about attraction, a reduction in nutrition, it's about productivity and it's about mental health as well.

Siara (25:47)
Mmm.

When you mentioned

I was projected back to a moment where I was introduced to Slack for the first time, the messaging app for those who don't know, and the concept of having channels where people could talk about their different side projects and plant advice or their favorite music. I loved it. Initially, I loved it. I still love it.

It did over time, I would say two years after the novelty wore off, I felt like, this a distraction? Is this actually a little bit overwhelming for me?

there was that initial feeling of I really love this because I'm getting to know my coworkers remotely, but effectively. And I'm not feeling like I'm taking up meeting time, and, you know, even during the pandemic, you couldn't really go to happy hour, you couldn't really go to lunch. So I really loved it for that. I'm curious what your thoughts are on

Tyler Rice (26:35)
Mm-hmm.

Siara (26:46)
and how workplaces that are using tools like Slack or Teams can get that benefit but still keep the balance.

Tyler Rice (26:54)
Yeah,

it's a great example. think that's an excellent example. One of the other things that I'm seeing is that organizations that are really intentional about creating mentorship experiences or connections that do not pertain to work, and you're connecting Sarah with Tyler in a virtual setting, to talk about mutual interests just for the sake of forming that connection is really important. Because if you think about what we did

Siara (27:11)
Hmm.

Tyler Rice (27:22)
back in the office is we would go on walk-in talks, right? We'd go for a coffee. Things that really didn't have to do with work, but more about our shared experiences, maybe a working committee, a working group, something like that. And it wasn't just focused on work. So I really love the example that you just shared about Slack. I think Slack can be an excellent modality for that. There are some cool and interesting platforms that we're seeing right now that are add-ons to Slack that are designed to exactly do what you just mentioned. And it's connected.

people with mutual interests to talk about their shared interests because it's such an important part of having that sense of belonging in the workplace.

Siara (27:55)
So I want to switch gears a little bit and get into what companies, what they're creating culture-wise, maybe some do's and some don'ts, some tactical things that companies can do to help make it better.

Tyler Rice (28:09)
Sure, Well, aptly termed as I'm writing right now a book called Tactical Disconnection. And so the whole notion of it is that by introducing kind of tactical breaks, strategic breaks away from our screens, we have both a personal and an organizational opportunity for benefit. And so I often talk about a top-down and a bottom-up approach. Now the top-down refers to steps that organizations can take, as you just asked in reference. The bottom-up.

Siara (28:15)
Yes.

Tyler Rice (28:35)
refers to steps that we as individuals, regardless of our organization's level of buy-in, can take again to reach that level of digital balance, digital flourishing. And so from a top-down perspective, organizational perspective, we're seeing a lot of great things right now from organizations that we've actually recognized as certified digitally balanced workplaces. And this is a new certification we've created in partnership with Fast Company. It's similar to kind of the great places to work.

Siara (28:58)
Mmm.

Tyler Rice (29:03)
program, although this one is something that specifically, on the employee experience and the digital culture. And so what we do is we measure companies based off of their level of employee engagement and understand what are those much markers and what are those things that companies are doing to create a healthy digital culture. We're finding a couple of things. The first is that they're creating a permission culture. They, from the top down,

are talking about the importance of digital balance within their own lives. So whether that is the C-suite, whether that is somebody with an HR, are broadly speaking talking about this issue and they're bringing awareness to it. In some cases, they're holding workshops, they're holding keynotes, they're holding virtual trainings. In other ones, they are actually making digital wellness a part of the employee onboarding experience. So when you're taking trainings related to, you know,

fraud, waste and abuse or inclusion in the workplace. Many organizations are introducing aspects of digital wellness into those trainings as well. The second thing that those companies are doing is that they are creating communication norms within the workplace. And what some are choosing to do is create communication charter workshops. And what that is, is really an organic and grassroots approach to creating norms within the company.

around when it is appropriate to communicate and frankly on what platforms it is most efficient to communicate on. That is really important because today the average worker has about four or five different platforms that they're managing. Some of the companies we work with say that an employee has to manage Slack and email and Teams and text messages and something else all at the same time.

Siara (30:32)
Mm.

Tyler Rice (30:42)
And so for them to be able to peel back the layers and work organically as a team from a grassroots perspective and say, okay, for this topic, we're going to use this platform or after hours, right? If something is urgent, I'm going to call you rather than expect you to be monitoring your email. Just bringing that into the topic conversation goes such a long ways. and I would say the last thing that the companies are doing is that they are actually introducing an element of technology or software into this experience to

Create positive nudges. So there's a platform that we partner with called Produce8. And one of the things that that platform does really well is it actually assesses the level of digital overload within the employee's day. It maps back all of their screen time and shows them how much time that they are spending on Slack, on Teams, on email, in PowerPoint, what have you.

And it actually references then their stated goals and intentions for the day and how much time they actually had to do or had dedicated to fulfilling those goals. And it's important because it sparks a really meaningful conversation for team members to say, Hey, you know, I don't have enough time in the day. And it's not because I lack the number of work hours. It's truly because my time and my energy and my attention is so diverted across all of these platforms. I just didn't have time to do it.

But it also introduces elements of micro challenges and actually encourages and gamifies digital wellness in a way that is pretty cool and actually builds skills and behaviors over time.

Siara (32:13)
So you talk about taking steps away from technology and having no meeting days. You also mentioned the four-day work week. What's your opinion about all of these new types of

norms that are being introduced to workplaces. I've heard of the four-day work week a lot, and then also I've heard a lot of companies making rules, pretty strict rules, around meetings and when we shouldn't have meetings, should you have a meeting with only two people, should meetings be cut to a

duration. So I'm definitely curious.

Tyler Rice (32:46)
Yeah, so there's so many great ideas there. think they're all getting at the notion of increasing efficiencies in the workplace culture. And we recognize the need to do so. And there is no one size fits all approach. I think what works for one organization may not work for another. But broadly speaking, what's important is that people are talking about this. And they're trying to find solutions that are, in fact, right for their organization. So one of the things that we've actually adopted at the Institute is this notion of

You do you Fridays. And so while it's not in per se a four day work week, right? We're not working four days for you know, 42 hours a day. We're actually just saying, okay, on Fridays, we have an internal policy that there can be no internal messages shared between team members. And it is a day that is specifically carved out for deep work and anything that we just did not get to during the start of the week that we want to that we need to get done.

Siara (33:37)
Mmm.

Tyler Rice (33:40)
to end the week on a high note and or prepare for the next week. And I think what's really important about that you do you day is that it is a day where employees are encouraged and actually mandated to disconnect. So there's no being on Slack. There's no, again, knowing when employees or what employees are doing. It's a trust system. And really it's one where employees are encouraged to do whatever they need to that day. If they need a mental health day, take the day, right?

But it's all geared towards increasing efficiency and productivity through mitigating burnouts in our own organization. And I think more organizations can take notes of that. And whether it's a day or whether it's an hour or blocks of time throughout the week, whatever it may be, it's really important. And I think there's no one size fits all approach. having that time, carving out that time, creating that permission culture, however they choose to do so, is in fact the end goal.

Siara (34:24)
Mm-hmm.

Burnout. You just mentioned burnout and everyone's talking about it.

It doesn't seem like there's a wonderful solution for it that's actually sustainable. I think it's finally starting to become more popular for people to say, if you are burnt out and you go on vacation, you come back, you're going to come back and you're still going to be burnt out. So what would the digital wellness Institute say about actually tackling burnout in a sustainable way and maybe getting away from these more dramatic full digital detoxes or full vacations that are really not solving the problem at its core.

Tyler Rice (35:07)
Yeah, you're right. mean, let's just think about that for second. If you were to walk away or take a break from work for a weekend or a week, and yet you knew on the other end of that vacation, your inbox was going to be four times as busy, four times as crazy, how can you actually relax, right? If you feel like you are going to be behind by taking a break, are you actually going to want to take that break, right?

Siara (35:30)
Mm-hmm.

Tyler Rice (35:34)
And what we're talking about here is kind of this treadmill where we are always like the faster we are running, the faster the treadmill goes. And even a thought about stepping away from that treadmill induces so much anxiety because we know that there's just no way that we're to be able to recover on the other end. So of course, right, that kind of a detox or that stepping away is not truly going to be effective unless we have an organizational culture.

that permits and creates that permission, that ability to kind of reorient into the work week following our vacation, following our time off. more than that, a culture that creates substantive norms that actually prevents the issue from happening in the first place, whereby I don't need to take a week away from work because I'm just so burnt out. If our workplace actually creates a culture of balance,

There should be no burnout in the first place, right? And there should be no fear then that coming back from that time away is going to increase our levels of anxiety, increase the work that we have to do. And so it is really something about looking at it and reframing the conversation and not looking at that detox or that vacation as the solution, but actually looking at the organizational culture and the norms and the habits and everything else that leads to that person feeling so burnt out and so overwhelmed.

Siara (36:31)
Mm-hmm.

Tyler Rice (36:57)
that actually needs to be addressed and that actually needs to be solutioned for.

Siara (37:01)
So less of a temporary band-aid and more of really getting to the root of the issue. What are your thoughts about receiving calls, emails, Slack messages or other communication when employees are on PTO? Or, you know, if it's not PTO, just scheduled time off?

Tyler Rice (37:20)
I think generally speaking, it's not something to strive for and it should be mitigated. think teams and individuals within those teams should actively work with their team members or their clients in the time leading up to their PTO to actually devise a communication strategy just to recognize the fact that, hey, you in two weeks I am going to be on vacation. This is what would qualify as urgent and important.

And if you need to get hold of me, right, here is my preferred channel, whether that's text or whether that's a phone call or what have you. And then actually explaining then back to the client and the team members, what that anticipated response time will be when you are on vacation. Now, ideally, right, you communicate with your team members and say, Hey, unless the house is burning, right. I am on break and you know, instead of reaching out to me, reach out to James or, you know, whomever it is, right. Appoint somebody else.

Siara (37:56)
Mm-hmm.

Tyler Rice (38:11)
that can cover for you in your absence and truly make it clear that you are on break. I see so often this, I call it kind of this tech machoism or this notion of like king of the hill, right? Where whoever is deemed to be the most responsive is often seen as the most productive or the hardest worker or the most accountable. And I think we need to peel back the layers on that and actually

Siara (38:33)
Yeah.

Tyler Rice (38:36)
Say that that's not the case and we should not be rewarding behavior when employees are saying I do have a break next week, but it's okay. You know, I'll be checking my email so often that is rewarded in workplace culture, but I think it's very pervasive and And it's negative and and so for us to be able to actually just call out and say hey No, I am gonna be on break and unless this is the exact scenario. I will not be responding to you. I think that's really important

Siara (39:00)
Mm-hmm,

and it's full circle because once

Workplaces start realizing how much more productive and how great for their bottom line digital wellness will be. They won't see that as such a positive. They actually might say something like, hey, don't get involved. You're on vacation. Go have a good time. I've had managers like that who have said, hey, you can disconnect. And I was just so grateful

Do you think that there is an opportunity, I know you mentioned a couple of products Do think there's more opportunities for HR tech solutions to address techno stress

help employees digitally flourish? Yeah.

Tyler Rice (39:38)
yeah, it's a blue ocean.

And I predict that kind of the next innovation or the next big innovation in the HR tech space is going to be something that is focused specifically on employee digital overwhelm, employee digital wellness. And so we're actively actually working in this space, actively kind of trying to parlay our research and education and training into a software solution, something that would integrate into the platforms that employees

are using most like Slack or like Teams to introduce elements of tactile disconnection, to introduce elements of digital wellness. And that's something that I'm excited to launch here in the year ahead in 2025, but one that I'm really passionate about and one that I think is ripe for opportunity in the market.

Siara (40:21)
What can we expect from that book?

Tyler Rice (40:23)
Yeah, you can expect a business and an economic argument as to why we need to start reframing the conversation in the workplace to see one of again, tactical disconnection as a benefit rather than a detriment. So it really goes against and argues against the common kind of norms and archetypes in our workplace that values constant connectivity.

Siara (40:36)
Mmm.

Tyler Rice (40:45)
and this pervasive and toxic culture of being always on. And what we're showing in what I show in the book is the benefits to our health, our happiness, and our productivity from a personal perspective. And then ultimately, the trickle-up effects and the benefits to our organizations when we have healthier digital boundaries. And tactical disconnection then refers to just four sets of tactics, core concepts that we each, regardless of where we are at within the organization, can take.

to maintain and create healthier balance for ourselves and our workplace.

Siara (41:18)
So we've talked a lot about the top-down

I want to talk a little bit more about the bottom up approach. I'm thinking of anyone from those who are not in a leadership position yet, who know that they need to set these digital boundaries, but they don't really know how. Maybe there's people in toxic work environments, unfortunately, you know, that obviously happens. So those environments are hard to change. How can employees make sure that they don't burn out? How can they set those boundaries if they can't

spread it throughout the team and the company, at least for themselves or maybe their micro team Do you have advice for those folks?

Tyler Rice (41:54)
I do,

I do. And that's, it's a hard position to be in. I think I'll first want to say that, you know, that's, I think, I think something that you can sometimes feel powerless in those situations when your workplace or organizational culture is one that is maybe against your values or is leading you to feel that dreaded sense of over-connectivity. I think my first advice is to leverage any sort of employee sentiment surveys that are made available to you as a team member, anonymous, of course, to

fall out the pervasiveness of that culture or the impact that that is having on your own experience, right? It's something that unless you can name it, organizations can't tame it. And so for employees to bring it to their attention of their leadership in a way that is anonymous and protect their own anonymity is really important. think two, if there is somebody that is trusted within, you know,

Siara (42:33)
Mm-hmm.

Tyler Rice (42:49)
an HR physician that they can talk to about this. Again, you can't name it, you can't tame it. So bringing it to their attention is also very important. But you also hit on the personal side of this equation. And that's really half of the battle. And I want to make that very clear. We can all, regardless of the way that our workplace and organizational cultures are, we can all strive for healthier digital balance and digital usage on our personal side as well. Now,

The two are often associated. What I mean by that is the more burnt out we are at work, the more likely we are to flip through our phones and kind of mindlessly scroll for that quick hit of dopamine, because it's typically the fastest way for us to feel just a little bit better. And that's not wrong. That's not wrong unless it becomes something that is really cyclical and that we cannot kind of get ourselves out of. And so what I often like to say to anybody using technology is that

Siara (43:24)
Mm-hmm.

Tyler Rice (43:41)
We need to educate ourselves on that optimal balance. need to understand when we are getting the most out of technology and mitigate those affiliated harms, really to create healthier balance and boundaries within our personal lives as well. So when we are at work, we are truly at work, right? And our phones are somewhere tucked away behind our screen or in a different room. And when we're at home though, to the extent to which we're able to, we need to truly be at home, right? And so our mind needs to be disassociated, disconnected.

from work unless it is an extenuating circumstance or a special circumstance. For us to be able to download apps and tools that help us stay on track, to help us stay focused, app lockers that set time limits for things that we might not want to spend our time on but find ourselves spending a lot of our time and energy on is something that we can all do. And also changing our environment, right? I think for us, when we go to sleep, again, one of the clearest things that we can all do

is put our phone in a different room. I hear from so many people that just say, ⁓ I use my phone as my alarm clock. That's why it needs to be under my pillow. Well, if it's under a pillow, right, any buzz, any notification, we're going to be spending our time doing that rather than sleeping. And if you have a partner and you're in the same room together, the effects of just sitting and scrolling on your phone side by side over time is not awesome for a relationship.

Siara (44:39)
Mm-hmm.

Tyler Rice (45:00)
And so just putting those away, right? Putting them outside of your bedroom, in your kitchen, downstairs, wherever you can. Just to have that semblance of balance and those boundaries is really important

too.

Siara (45:11)
So doom scrolling LinkedIn in the morning isn't a good idea, to be clear.

Tyler Rice (45:16)
Yeah, no, mean, I would technically start your day

with ideally away from screens entirely, like have the first hour, have a plan, have kind of a routine, have your coffee, read the newspaper, right? Journal, read, make breakfast for your kids. Like what have you? Know that everything is going to be there in like an hour. And it's not going to matter if you do it now or later, but it's only going to be better for your mental health and your productivity if you delay that.

Siara (45:22)
Yes.

How do you personally unplug after a long day of work?

Tyler Rice (45:46)
Yeah, that's a good question. So it's been a challenge over the past year because my source of unplugging has been writing this book. And so I've been more connected digitally than I really have at any point in my life. And so for me, digital wellness has become all that more important. And again, I look at that and I remind myself that quantity does not equal quality. And so while I'm spending more time on screen than ever, I'm doing creative pursuits, right? I'm writing, I'm reading, I'm kind of feeding that.

that part of my brain that loves that and is really invigorated by that. But at the same time, I recognize the importance of truly stepping away and in doing so, right, regulating my kind of the dopamine feedback loop in my mind and regulating my own emotional state by just taking time away to go on a walk after work and creating that kind of that routine, right? When I go for a walk right after work, I know that I'm winding down.

I'm leaving my phone at home, I'm texting my partner, I'm telling her that, I'm not going to be reachable for the next 35, 45 minutes. Getting some element of physical activity, so whether that's a walk, whether that's going to the gym, going for a bike ride, what have you, really I found resets my day and then allows me to refocus then and shift into that writing period that I do typically towards the end of the evening, nine to midnight is when I like to write the most.

So having that routine, introducing physical activities and not bringing our devices with us is something that we can all do.

Siara (47:14)
And then I'm curious if you have a personal set of rules around digital communication and your digital footprint. It seems you have a pretty healthy boundary around when the day ends and how you disconnect, but throughout the day, just as you are on the screen, you're being productive, how do you set those boundaries both with yourself and with others that you're working with?

Tyler Rice (47:37)
Yeah, so I think the first part about setting boundaries is actually mapping out your day, right? And so I talk about this in the book and it's not groundbreaking by any means, but it's really just creating a road map of eight. Here are my tasks that I need to accomplish today and I literally write down hour by hour or sometimes 30 minutes by 30 minutes how I'm going to spend my time to do that. And I actually am very. Yeah, I incorporate breaks in that time. I incorporate time to, you know, text my friends or.

manage my fantasy football team. Different things like that bring me joy, but I know that if I don't schedule it in preset blocks of time, I am likely or can spend too much time doing that, right? So I think setting that goal, setting that roadmap for the day is something that's really important. And also communicating to my peers and my family members too when I'm working, they know that I'm not going to be responsive and that's okay, right?

Siara (48:06)
You

Mm-hmm.

Tyler Rice (48:31)
I often like to get back to them later in the evening, but if I don't, they know that, you know, they can always call me and I'm going to pick up, but I'm typically not the best text messenger. So that's one thing that people just know about me. But really it's about setting that roadmap and it's really about staying attuned to that as well. And for me to be able to check off kind of every half hour, every hour that I did exactly what I wanted is rewarding as well.

Siara (48:54)
And then you're also, you know, you're in the public. You're a thought leader in this space. So you have to be on social So I'm curious what your relationship with social media is and how you keep that at bay.

Tyler Rice (49:06)
Yeah, it's tactical to use that term once again. Really, truly, it really is. Again, when I think about my day, I am very intentional about the hours or the amount of time that I'm spending specifically on business pursuits on LinkedIn or Instagram, which are the two platforms that I use most to really spread awareness, my message, et cetera. And so for me to be able to carve out time in the day that is dedicated particularly to that,

is really important. And then also leveraging tools like Opal or like Freedom, which are screen blocking apps to actually disallow me access to those platforms after working hours. So truly after five or six p.m. Eastern, I block all forms of social media just so that I'm not tempted to use those after work. And so that makes my time

Siara (49:54)
Go Guys.

Tyler Rice (49:58)
much more intentional, much more focused, knowing that I only have between the hours of 1pm and 2pm Eastern to do what I need to do on LinkedIn or to do what I need to do on Instagram. leveraging the tools available to me and then again setting those intentions. That's how I kind of maintain that balance with social media as well.

Siara (50:14)
Do you have any official app recommendations for us? You mentioned Opal and Freedom. I'm not familiar with Freedom, but Opal I am familiar with, so I'm curious how they work.

Tyler Rice (50:25)
Yeah, Opal is wonderful. Kenneth, their CEO, is a connection of mine and he's just, again, an exceptional innovator in this space. I love what they've done from the user interface perspective. It's beautiful, it's brilliant. I would definitely recommend anybody to use Opal. If you're interested from an organizational perspective and want to deploy this to your team as a benefit, Freedom is a great option. They're wonderful friends of ours as well.

I leverage theirs on my desktop and I use Opal on my personal phone as well. So those are kind of the two that I'm seeing. There's so many wonderful innovators in the space right now, wonderful solutions, and I'm interested to see what one or which one of them becomes kind of the main solution in the next few years. Because I think like any innovation, like any application, there's, there was always, know, there's, you know,

solution before Facebook, is, you know, solution before Instagram and it's like which one is going to become the Instagram or the Facebook of digital wellness. Time will tell.

Siara (51:27)
Have you heard of these like lighter phones, these more, okay, minimalistic phones? It's so interesting because I'm always very curious and fascinated with it, but I almost know by nature of my work working in tech, I'm gonna need.

the full working smartphone, either Android or iPhone, because of authentication, apps, know, managing different channels and whatnot. I'm curious if you think that that could somehow be worked into the workplace.

Tyler Rice (51:56)
Yeah, such a good question. I have a light phone. I've experimented with it and. You know, I think I think. I'm most excited about this topic in particular because I think I see an opportunity in the physical environments in which we live in the physical environments in the future. So you mentioned for all the right reasons, right? The need that we have to have a smartphone, right? We need two factor identification. We need to access zoom. You know when we're on the go.

Siara (51:59)
Okay, cool.

Tyler Rice (52:22)
what have you, right? I see kind of a smart house of the future whereby I envision there's gonna be one centrally located place where, maybe again, we have just think about like an iPad that's built into the wall, right? And so inherently, right? When we're leveraging technology, right? We're more active, right? We're standing there. We're actually in the presence of others. It's a shared social space.

Siara (52:24)
Mmm.

Tyler Rice (52:47)
Similar to where our computers were, if you think about growing up in the 90s or early 2000s, our parents probably had a computer in the basement or a computer in the living room. It was a shared common space. So was almost a communal experience and it wasn't as isolating. So I actually think that we'll revert to something like that. And then in our personal devices, we will have that freedom or that ability to kind of go light or have dumb phones because we know that right there is going to be that centrally located, you

Siara (52:58)
Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Tyler Rice (53:17)
iPad or interface or whatever it is that we need to interact with others and get that information that we need. So that's actually how I aspire to set up my home in the future. again, I think just balancing all the benefits that we derive from that technology while again mitigating those harms. That's what we want to strive for.

Siara (53:24)
cool.

Very cool, yeah, I love the idea of that. Okay, so ultimate question, do you personally feel that you are digitally flourishing or is it sort of the nirvana of digital wellness where you're always gonna be kind of working towards that north star? Or can you figure it out? Can you be like, I'm digitally flourishing now, I'm just kind of coasting now on this nice train?

Tyler Rice (53:56)
Yeah, such a good question. Look, I think it's a it's a journey. I think it's a spectrum. I think like mental health, right? I think education is empowerment. The more we talk about it, the more we have a framework and a reference point from which we can take action and improve. But it's a journey, right? And so some days we have good days and days we have bad days. Some days I have good days, some days I have bad days. And so for me, it's all about just placing myself in along that continuum and being able to recognize it right if I am.

teetering towards that side of overuse or overwhelm, it's being able to name it. It's being able to recognize it. It's being able to take steps to address it and kind of get back to that state of flourishing. So what I'm trying to say is that digital flourishing for me personally, it's not a state in which I am just always in. I am in this state of nirvana where I am enlightened. No, it's not like that. It is truly a continuum. Depending on the day, depending on what happens in my life, I oscillate between this side and that side.

Siara (54:31)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Tyler Rice (54:54)
But more or less, what I strive to do is live as much of my life in that center as possible. And provided this concept, provided this education, this roadmap, I then have the skills, the abilities to navigate that and to return to that center place as much as I'm able to.

Siara (55:11)
that is a lot more obtainable in my mind of knowing I'm gonna have these hard days where maybe I wasn't the best, but I might have those really 10 out of 10 days for digital wellness. So thank you for sharing that. I'd like to ask all of my guests, what are you logging into this year and what are you logging out of? However you'd like to interpret that.

Tyler Rice (55:34)
Such a good question. Gosh, I think I am logging in to greater levels of intention around my digital usage. Logging into finding more time for in person connection, right? While digital connection is wonderful, right? It's allowing us to communicate like this. That community, what I said at the mentioned at the very beginning of our conversation.

is so important to me. And I think to the extent to which we are able to communicate and build that community with others in person, it's so much more valuable. And it really is something that I want to log into and tune into more. I think logging out, I want to log out of, I want to log out of worrying about the outcome, right? I want to log out of thinking about

so much the end result of whatever it may be, right? Whether it's writing a book, building a business, studying for a test in grad school, right? And by nature of doing so, I want to just be more present. I want to log into the notion of being more present by caring about the inputs rather than the outputs. And in doing so, again, just enjoying those moments for what they are rather than waiting and push the can down the road and say,

Siara (56:30)
Mmm.

Tyler Rice (56:46)
I will be fulfilled or I will be happy when. No, I don't want that. I want to log out from that notion and just be present and enjoy the journey.

Siara (56:52)
Hmm.

Love that. Okay, so when Tactical Disconnection comes out, we might need to have you back on the show because I know that it's going to reopen my mind. I'm going to have a lot more questions. But thank you so much for being here today. Where can we learn more about your work?

Tyler Rice (57:00)
Peace.

Learn more about Digital Wellness Institute at digitalwellnessinstitute.com, of course on our LinkedIn, socials as well. If you've heard about this workplace program and you think, you know, it'd be wonderful if my organization had this, or, my organization is already doing an exceptional job about this, I would love for them to be recognized, we have a nomination form that you can fill out.

and we'd love to follow up on that. Again, the more organizations that are recognized in this capacity, I think the better and the more this improvement is going to build. And then from a personal standpoint too, you can learn more about me at tylerriceauthor.com. I'm available for speaking events. Certainly you can find the book on that website and across all major platforms

And you can find me on LinkedIn. I'm happy to connect. I would love to hear more about your digital wellness experience, your journey, and hope to provide any assistance or benefit that I can.

Siara (58:00)
thank you so much for joining us, Tyler. And to everyone listening, I will see you next time.

Tyler Rice (58:05)
Thank you so much.

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