#014: How The Betting Economy Targets Young Men: Keith D. Exposes The Online Gambling Epidemic

Siara (00:00)

If you're struggling with gambling addiction, you're not alone. Help is available and confidential. Call or text the National Problem Gambling Helpline at 1-800-522-4700, available 24-7, or visit ncpgambling.org to find support in your state. If you're in crisis or having thoughts of suicide, call or text 988-to reach the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.

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Keith D (00:26)

we've seen this attempt to create a new asset class, right?

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Siara Joy (00:29)

Mm.

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Keith D (00:31)

In the form of what's actually just gambling.

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Social media already highly addictive. And then you merge that with something like gambling, where it's also highly addictive,

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the entire business model is your losses. That's the only way that they make money,

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you're designed to lose money on that platform, if they didn't, they wouldn't exist

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something about a gambling addiction in general that's kind of unique if I see you with your Starbucks every day, I can

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question that. If you're smoking, I can smell that. If you're

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Siara Joy (00:56)

Mm.

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Keith D (00:57)

drinking, I can see the impact that it's having on you. But with a gambling addiction, you really can't.

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And that's the other thing with alcohol, I can only drink so much, right? Before I'm impaired.

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That's not the case with gambling. You can take your entire life savings dump it into an app and lose it in five minutes.

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Siara Joy (01:13)

Ugh yeah. I had never thought about it that way.

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Keith D (01:15)

If you're watching this and you have a friend who's constantly asking you for money.

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I want you to figure out if that person is gambling.

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Siara Joy (01:24)

How can they what are signs that someone is dealing with an online gambling problem?

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Siara (01:30)

Hi, welcome back. In case you missed it, last week I did a full breakdown and walkthrough of Kalshi

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app where you can bet on real-world events. The app is rapidly gaining popularity. They gained 3 million new users just during the World Cup alone.

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definitely go back and watch that episode. But here are a few quick facts to set the stage for today's episode.

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We know that Kalshi is not technically considered gambling because its contracts are classified as financial instruments. We also know that Kalshi claims there is no house to bet against, but there's an LLC called Kalshi Trading LLC that trades on its own exchange, and that has triggered a class action in New York, arguing that the LLC is in fact the house. There are a few other legal proceedings going on in regards to Kalshi as well.

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We also know that Kalshi does not need to include addiction disclaimers or responsible gambling messaging in its advertising because it doesn't technically fall under the category of gambling. I do a live walkthrough of the app to give my initial thoughts and reactions to the platform, but the long and short of it is it's all a little shady.

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Also, the plot has thickened. I made my own prediction during the episode. I said that I thought there would be a 60-minute on insider trading on Kalshi within two months. I was a little bit off. Only three days after my episode, Netflix released a documentary on the subject called InstaDocs: The Prediction Games. If you want a good idea of who you are actually betting against when you trade on apps like this, I would definitely give it a watch. It's about 36 minutes, and I wouldn't even really call it a hit piece because Kalshi 's

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CEO, Polymarket's CEO, and the head of the CFTC all sat down for it.

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But spoiler alert, the peers you're trading against are usually groups whose full-time job is knowing more about the outcome than you do and having data and capital to act on it before you can. We're talking about quant traders, chart analysts, and in some cases, people who are actually willing to go change the outcome themselves. The documentary gets into betters pressuring war reporters to publish stories that would settle a contract, and hackers manufacturing streams on Spotify to move a song up in the charts. That second one actually happened last month.

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There was a Kalshi market on the most streamed song in the US and it had around $3 million writing on it. It turns out Spotify had to delete 500,000 artificial streams that helped lead to the win after the fact. And Kalshi paid out the winners before Spotify ever finished investigating. I wonder how the losing side feels about that. So you may be betting against like criminals, basically. Either way,

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Their profits rely on you believing that you are smart enough to beat them. And that might explain why 81% of Kalshi users end up in the red, according to Kalshi's own data.

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Siara (04:08)

As you can imagine, Kalshi was not exactly thrilled with the portrayal. Before the documentary was released, the company sent Netflix a cease and desist letter demanding that it remove the trailer, which Kalshi called defamatory and accused of including fabricated documents and misleading statements.

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disputed that any of the footage had been fabricated.

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Siara (04:24)

even in the most legal of cases, it seems prediction apps are designed to feel like investing, but seem to have the same financial and behavioral consequences as gambling.

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But I wanted to understand more about the broader world of online betting and gambling. So I found Keith D. Keith comes from the world of financial literacy where gambling-related financial problems appeared so often that he eventually decided to address them directly. He is the co-founder of No Dice,

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an app that works directly on your device to block betting platforms and build in deliberate pauses when you need more distance from gambling and prediction market apps. We'll discuss how betting apps are designed to keep people playing, why willpower and traditional

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Self-exclusion tools often fail, and what it actually takes to help someone regain control before the financial damage becomes irreversible. Let's meet Keith

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Keith D (05:20)

Hey there Siara how are

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Siara Joy (05:21)

I'm good. Thanks for joining us today.

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I'm super curious how you got into this space. What pulled you into the world of online gambling recovery?

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Keith D (05:30)

I love this question because I actually don't have any experience with gambling myself. But what I have been doing for many years now is talking about financial literacy. And what happened is that this gambling problem continued to come up right in the things that I was looking at around financial literacy and decisions and behaviors that people had around money.

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And so it's gotten to the point to where, as someone who invests across several different asset classes and that tries to inform people about these different asset classes, we've seen this attempt to create a new asset class, right?

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Siara Joy (06:15)

Mm.

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Keith D (06:16)

In the form of what's actually just gambling.

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So it kinda came to me. It came into my world and I was like, wait a minute, this isn't right. And and that's kind of what started the whole journey of digging deeper into why is this happening? what exactly is happening and how is this affecting the behaviors of people who are trying to find a way to get ahead in life, which is usually where I'm at.

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Siara Joy (06:40)

Mm,

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this is so interesting. I wasn't not expecting you to say that, but now that you say they're sort of trying to create a new asset, what I hear in the advertising and what I see in the marketing is them using a lot of those financial buzzwords like the portfolio and like what did I see? A prediction strategy almost like as if

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gambling has a sense of control to it, which it doesn't seem like it does. So do you think it's part of the marketing for these companies to make people feel like they're doing something impressive and strategic and,

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Keith D (07:15)

One hundred percent. in a more anecdotal sense, like well, a a lot of this is being targeted toward men, young men. young men have a lot of insecurities. Young men are trying to find their way in life, they're trying to find something to be confident about, something

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Siara Joy (07:34)

Mm-hmm.

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Keith D (07:35)

that makes them feel special and unique. And these gambling companies are preying on that.

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Preying on also this sort of instinctual kind of desire to be right or to have control. and that's 100% what these prediction markets especially do. You're you're taking everyday events. You've you've already got sports. Okay. Men love to watch sports and they love to be right about who's gonna win, who's gonna score the most points.

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Who's the best player? And if you can have a place where you can objectively measure that, not only in terms of what the outcome was, but also I made money and you didn't. I won and you lost. Right. That's very attractive to people who are looking for something to have confidence about. people who are extremely insecure or just in general, trying to find a way to not feel like things aren't going their way or that they have control over some sort of an outcome.

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And so this idea of both, you know, trying to make it seem like there's some level of control. There's this term on Twitter that's called monitoring the situation. Right. So for instance, when a war breaks out, you know, there's like these memes that come up of like the guy with 30 screens, like acting like he knows what's going on in, you know, the Middle East, and placing even regular financial market trades on that. But now this is being extrapolated over into once again.

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literal things about, will there be a strike, for instance, that's gonna happen in this region over the next twenty four, forty eight, or seventy two hours. And and and then the fractionalization of that, which is what's also messed up. So when I say that fractionalization, I'm saying within the next six months, within the next three months, one month, one week, right? And now you've got all these different bets that someone could put on and come up with some arbitrage strategy, right, around how they found some

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mispriced bet in one place or another. And now there's like a strategy to this. And this isn't gambling, this is financial arbitrage. And but but back to that point of the language that's being used around this, that's also super deceptive. I'm just gonna put it plain.

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Yes, the word portfolio is being used a lot in the world of straight up even sports gambling, and also these prediction markets. You're building your portfolio. And I think that it's really messed up. It's it's not a portfolio. Okay. Th these the prediction markets they also have what are called event contracts. Okay. And there's a bunch of stuff we can talk about around like the regulations of it all. We'll come to that later. But

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The language of event contracts, also the language of what do they say, information markets. you're trading information is what's going on here. This isn't a bet, is what they're trying to claim. And it's just it's completely deceptive. I I logged into one of my crypto apps the other day. It's called Coinbase, and it said, trade sports, trade the World Cup matches. And I'm like, this isn't a trade, brother. I'm sorry.

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But it's

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a bet. And the fact that this is in my financial app now is really messed up. So

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Siara Joy (10:49)

No yeah. No, that's

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that is weird. Like I was not expecting you to say that too, 'cause Coinbase is one of those I have that. So I technically have like I'm so close, like my access to this world is closer than I think. That is really crazy.

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Keith D (11:04)

It's it's

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crazy. It's like I said, it's come to me, right? It's coming to us, it's coming to everybody at this point. So, yeah.

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Siara Joy (11:12)

And so like have you ever participated in online gambling yourself?

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Keith D (11:18)

haven't this is another thing about this is like this has been a core piece of my personality from the jump. I just when I was in high school people would do like their fantasy football and like even you know poker and stuff like that and I just I the way that I frame this is that there was a time in my life where I worked minimum wage. I lived in a state called Tennessee. So the minimum wage there is like seven dollars and twenty five cents. Okay.

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And I even had a job once where you got paid four twenty five an hour and then tips. So as long as your tips get above the seven twenty-five an hour, you know, you'll you'll be fine. You'll

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Siara Joy (11:52)

Yep.

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Keith D (11:54)

get that that minimum wage. And and I was like, I've I've done this before. I've worked minimum wage before and there's no chance personally that I'm ever gonna take one cent of my money and like put that in the hands of someone else.

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To see whether or not it'll come back to me or not. Right. So that was just

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Siara Joy (12:12)

Mm-hmm.

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Keith D (12:14)

my personal philosophy around it all and why it also became really easy to speak out against this.

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Siara Joy (12:18)

Yeah, I can relate there. also made minimum wage at some point, also did restaurant on industry, like living off tips and a lot of it was cash anyway. There was no online betting to be done, so I can relate there. Did you see this around you? it's it seems like you

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the financial literacy that you have, is probably, stronger than the average person, but did you see this and notice that it was an issue immediately or you just thought some people online gamble? I don't and that's all.

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Keith D (12:46)

No, no,

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it's actually super interesting. I it definitely came up for me in university. I went to the University of Miami and there were some kids there who, you know, had access to substantial amounts of starting capital. Let's say it that way. And because of that, also you could see some of these kids that had substantial amounts in their accounts as well. And I just remember people bragging about that piece of it. and

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Me being super removed from it, not like finding any interest in it. I didn't think too much of it at the time. but it was clear that this was something that they talked to their friends about. This is something that, they would create these you're creating an emotional experience, right, when you're doing this. And you could tell that this was a big part of it, was like, like I won, or I lost. And

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Once again, for a lot of these kids, it didn't really matter that much, you know? So that was something that was kind of interesting because I'm like, this is like a luxury for you. This is this is an entertainment device, but it's extremely luxurious. and yeah, I mean, like now looking back at that, I kind of think that I I clocked that part of it correct because a lot of other people are using it in the same way, but don't have the same luxury of being able to just play with money like that.

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There was a kid one time who held a phone up to my face and showed me his gambling account that had a million dollars in it.

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Siara Joy (14:12)

Do you think it started lower or higher than that?

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Keith D (14:16)

It it probably started lower than that, I'm not gonna lie, but the question is where did it end?

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Siara Joy (14:21)

Yeah, he showed you when he was up.

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Keith D (14:23)

Yeah.

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Siara Joy (14:24)

That is crazy. Yeah. In college. It's

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Keith D (14:26)

Yeah. So

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Siara Joy (14:28)

too much money to you're too stupid in college to have that much money to play with.

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Keith D (14:32)

Yeah, no doubt. And and on top of that, right, these are kids that are in, let me just say, social clubs, and there's a lot of substances involved around all of this activity. And and you know, it just the things that can go wrong with that are really high. And once again, the stakes for these these people was very low. but for other people who are being handed these same types of devices.

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these same types of extremely addictive technologies, you might think you're playing the same game and you're not. what's entertainment for someone who's got a million dollars in an account or who was given who knows how much money, right? It's very, very different kind of entertainment for them than it is for somebody who's trying to get by. Someone who's trying to use this as a vehicle to actually, you know, have success or live a better life.

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And even the psychology of how you use these platforms when you're coming from that place is very different. And it's much more detrimental. You're much more likely to chase a loss. Because that loss means that's your rent money. That loss means that's grocery money. That loss is something that's actually significant to you in your life. And once again, if you're looking at Drake, for instance, as an actual example, gambling money on a stream, right?

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Him losing a million dollars is literally nothing to him. And then on top of that, we can talk about this, these streamers that are streaming, they're not even using their own money. This is the money that these casinos have given them to gamble.

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Siara Joy (16:00)

Yeah.

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Keith D (16:01)

A lot like the kid in university who just kinda got the money and then started playing around with it. You know what I mean?

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Siara Joy (16:06)

Hmm. That's interesting. Okay, so like in the social context, it is almost competitive. Like you can go hang out with your bros or sisters. We'll assume like it could be anyone and

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you can brag about a bet that did well, or you can mourn a bet that didn't do so well. And so there's almost this like social context. And it's really interesting the thing that you said about the identity piece where they're sort of looking for a bit of a confidence booster for them. but who else is using these platforms? It seems to be like you said, it seems to

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towards men, is there an age range that is really popular?

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Keith D (16:44)

Yeah, that's a it's a great question. Right now we're seeing a lot of younger people getting sucked into this phenomenon. it's younger men under the age of 34, particularly even Gen Z are getting drawn into this world. And I mean, there's probably a few different reasons behind that. One is that they're being targeted, right? When you look at the advertising that's being done.

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the figures that are being used. It's all these online streamers that are promoting these platforms. It's athletes in a lot of cases, which that one I just I hate to see. and, you know

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Siara Joy (17:19)

Why why

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do you hate to see it? Not to interrupt, but I'm curious.

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Keith D (17:22)

I d I hate it. It's like, once again, it's it's this person who has status, financial success, and like you've kind of won in a way, and then you're pushing people towards something that you did not do to get there. You know, like you're you're telling people, go do this thing that it's not gonna help you. even though you're looking at me as someone who could help you, who could

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be inspirational to you in some way. And these people know it is the thing that's also messed up. There was this guy who actually spoke out against it. His name is Dennis Schroeder. He's an he's an NBA player, a former NBA player. I think he plays in Germany now. And he was on a stream with this guy named Neon, who's one of the perfect examples of these people who are just these streamers who don't care about their audience.

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Siara Joy (18:08)

Mm.

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Keith D (18:08)

And Schroeder called Neon out because Neon was talking about how he gambled or whatever and like he lost a bunch of money.

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And Dennis Schroeder was on the stream and he said, Yo, I already know how that stuff works. that wasn't your money. And then Neon asks him back and he says, well, yeah, like da-da-da. And he's like, But why wouldn't you take this money? Because they're giving me money and it's great. Why don't you take that money? And Dennis Schroeder was like, Because I'm a role model. Plain and simple.

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Siara Joy (18:35)

Mm-hmm.

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Keith D (18:36)

And you could tell that Neon was like trying to compute, like, what is

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You know, and it's just like, point being, if Dennis Schroeder can sit there and articulate that. I don't think it's that difficult to articulate or think about that for these other athletes and rappers and whoever else that are promoting these plans.

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Siara Joy (18:55)

Yeah.

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And when you say it's their money, is that house money? Is that the right term? Like we need to maybe break down how this works in terms of like is there a sports book account that then manages the betting on a certain app or the platforms tied together? Like we should definitely hit on that. But I'm wondering when you say their money, like whose money

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Is the money just going back in the same place when when it's a sponsored bet like that?

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Keith D (19:20)

Yeah, this is a great question. And I wonder if I'll get to see it from the inside or not. Cause a lot of times, I've I've had one of these companies reach out and then they're not like saying that I'm talking about this, I guess, because I talk about other stuff too. And they think that they can get me to talk about it. But from the outside, a few things seem to be happening. One of them is that obviously they'll pay an influencer, right? A sponsorship amount, just period. You pick get paid this amount per month to talk about our product. Okay, cool. The next thing is that

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They have some sort of a system where they're giving them money to also use on the platform. Okay. So if I'm an influencer, you give me $100,000 to go and place a bet on whatever platform. And I'm recording my experience doing this. So I've started with $100,000, it went down to $80,000. And now all of a sudden I'm at $300,000 and I'm rich and I won and I beat the game forever. and and so these people are.

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Obviously, not gambling with their own money. It's gambling with money that the platform has given them. And at that point, right, how real is the money? Like, I I don't even know. There was a scandal that just came out from Wall Street Journal talking about poly market in particular, and how

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Siara Joy (20:30)

Yeah.

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Keith D (20:30)

they actually set up an entirely fake site for their influencers to go and gamble on. And so now allegedly, sorry.

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Siara Joy (20:37)

So it's monopoly money? Like are

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they actually winning money when they win?

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Keith D (20:41)

First off, allegedly. Because because I have yeah. Yeah.

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Siara Joy (20:43)

Okay. Allegedly so that we we don't get in trouble here.

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Keith D (20:48)

because they haven't had any legal proceedings about any of that yet. But but I mean I I honestly I don't even actually know. All I know is that they're willing to go to the lengths of setting up a completely fake site, to make it look like people are winning. and at that point, you know.

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Hopefully it's just

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Siara Joy (21:07)

Yeah.

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Keith D (21:08)

clear that this is completely deceptive and yeah.

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Siara Joy (21:11)

Right.

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I think a quote that's been running through my mind all month and I will attribute it correctly later because I completely forgot who the name of this gentleman, but he said, If you don't know the problem that a company is solving, then you should be very scared of that product.

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And also, as we've all heard, you know, you are the product, oftentimes with these types of companies. But it is really something like that where they're creating like this whole fake simulation just to get people into a platform is like that's bad news. There's red flags all over the place, people.

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Keith D (21:45)

Yeah, I

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I would love to touch on on that because we've gone through watching social media go from like just normal, cool thing to now finally getting to the point where we're like, okay, this is having a negative impact on us. It's shortening our attention spans, it's keeping us from being able to relate to one another. And there's actual studies being done coming out and even court cases that are being settled where YouTube and some other platforms had to pay out a settlement.

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based on the fact that they actually led people to being addicted to their platform and that leading to worse economic outcomes in their lives. Not from them losing money on this platform, just from them losing their time and their attention on these platforms, right? Okay, cool. We're taking that same exact technology and we're merging that technology with gambling. Right? Meta just announced that they're about to start trying to do their own prediction market. Meta, Facebook.

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Instagram and just

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Siara Joy (22:45)

Mm-hmm.

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Keith D (22:45)

imagine right when we get to the point to where we have

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Social media already highly addictive. And then you merge that with something like gambling, where it's also highly addictive, and people are losing their money on these platforms.

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Siara Joy (23:00)

Mm-hmm.

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Keith D (23:02)

the point that I wanted to make was so, so who is the product? What is the product? Well, so when you look at gambling, the interesting thing is that the entire business model is your losses. Right? That's the only way that they make money, is that

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Over time, statistically, you're designed to lose money on that platform, if they didn't, they wouldn't exist if this if this wasn't how it worked. And so the statistical edge being against you, like how how does that actually work mechanically?

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On a sports book, you're talking about what's called the VIG. Okay, it's just a term that essentially describes how the odds are against you from the beginning of the bet, right? So you might need to place $110 down to make 100. Okay. And that's just standard how these odds are built out. And the odds are specifically set based upon.

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models that are being run internally in the company, right? You've got people

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Siara Joy (24:02)

Okay.

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Keith D (24:02)

who get paid lots of money to build programs that help to build out the odds to make it favorable to the sports book.

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The key thing about that that separates it from a prediction market platform is that when you're doing a sports book, you're betting against the book. You're betting against that house. Right. very similar to how it works with an online casino or even a regular casino. You're betting against the house, right? The house is taking some level of risk, but once again, they they know what they're doing and they have the odds in their favor.

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When it comes to these prediction market platforms, it's a little bit different because what you're talking about is a peer-to-peer situation.

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Siara Joy (24:42)

Yeah.

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Keith D (24:44)

And this is how they're able to get around the gaming regulations. It's because all you're not betting against us, you're betting against your fellow man over here who's taking the other side of the bet.

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Siara Joy (24:53)

Mm-hmm.

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Keith D (24:54)

So in that case, well, they don't really care who wins or loses. They'll just take a cut out of whatever is being done on the platform. And well,

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In those markets, you're still unlikely to have any edge because you're trading against people who have the information. So if you're trading information, the question you have to ask is who actually knows? Because

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Siara Joy (25:18)

Yeah.

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Keith D (25:18)

someone does to some degree, or at least has a much higher level of being able to know or being closer to what the outcome of this may be. And then you have to realize that you are by definition.

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Trading against that person, right? Because that's why these markets exist. Well, that's a that's something that I will I will say this is how I look at it, okay? Because these platforms can claim that that's not how it all goes and that they have things in place to keep people from insider trading and so on. But I would argue that the incentive of the system is for someone who knows the information to then come and create the market for whatever it is that they

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Siara Joy (25:59)

Yeah.

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Keith D (26:00)

know.

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Siara Joy (26:01)

I see. Okay. So when it comes to non sports bets, because it's pretty clear to me how insider trading happens with sports betting and, you know, Wall Street and finance and all that But now that we're

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We're hosting predictions based on world events. How could they possibly stop insider information from being warped or manipulated in whatever direction someone might want it to go? I can't. Yeah.

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Keith D (26:30)

A massive issue.

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we've seen several different instances of like just nefarious things that have happened in the United States. At the beginning of the year, you had someone in the US military who placed a bet on the US taking Maduro Maduro. He like placed a bet on that, won the bet for like $400,000, and then now he's going through legal proceedings for that. He got caught. there was a guy in France, Paris, France.

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Who went up to a temperature detector at

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an airport?

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Siara Joy (26:57)

I heard of this.

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Keith D (26:58)

Used a blow dryer to manipulate the sensor. Won the bet, got in trouble, got caught. we're talking about a system here. We're talking about incentives. That's constantly the incentive is to find a way to manipulate the data so that you can win.

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Siara Joy (27:15)

Yeah.

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Keith D (27:15)

And if there's any way in which you can do so, then you will. There was another one, a Super Bowl streaker. Will there be a streaker at the Super Bowl?

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Siara Joy (27:25)

Mm-hmm.

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Keith D (27:26)

Bets on it, streaks across the field. Right. This one, not as well documented. that one is not something that has been like taken to legal proceedings. Right. But in general, right? This this is the the incentive of these systems that it creates. And it's there, I mean, you would have to set up your society. You'd have to have police, you know, whose job it is, right, to try and figure this out all the time. Like

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You'd have to have a whole division from the FBI. And I wouldn't be surprised if we saw that, to be honest, dedicated to these types of crimes.

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Siara Joy (27:57)

Yeah.

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is that what we want our tax dollars to do? Like hold up this economy that is putting people in a terrible place? Like I don't know, it's just so backwards. Okay, so

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Keith D (28:10)

And it's an interesting way

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to look at it 'cause it's like you only need that if you're allowing this to continue. You know what I mean?

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Siara Joy (28:15)

Yes.

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Yeah. do you have an opinion on where to place or distribute, I guess, the blame? Because I I'm always gonna lean towards not blaming the user themselves.

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just because advertising, like you said, is very deceptive. and as you said, the social media tricks that they use to get people's attention, now we're bringing that into the betting world. So the way I see it, there's the regulators who allow it to happen, there's the platforms themselves, the I guess the institutions that sort of allow the

‍

The bets to get placed. I'm just curious of what your opinion is on who's responsible for allowing such a toxic economy to thrive.

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Keith D (28:55)

Yeah. you know, this is something that I struggle with because I definitely believe in allowing people to do what they want, right? Like I I think people should be able to do what they want. I also think that companies should be held responsible when they're being deceptive or when they're pushing people towards things that are actually just known to be bad for them, right? Statistically. and you know, we have regulations that are pretty well

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Done and thought out around alcohol and regular gambling. When it comes to online gambling and what's happening with prediction markets, the regulations are not really fully there and or they're being treated differently because of this and that exception and exemptions. And so we're kind of in this weird gray box with how that's going.

‍

And so at the end of the day, I look at my Coinbase and I see them offering to trade sports, which is something that I would never do. And I think to myself, do you really need to offer that? Like, is that really a part of the thing that you're offering? And I come back to that. It's like the the problem with that is gonna be, well, if all of my competitors are doing it, then I have to do it.

‍

To remain competitive. And so then it kind of gets to the point where, all right, we might have to have some sort of a regulatory response. Because once again, these things are being advertised deceptively. They're being tied in with products that are with positive expectancy, things that actually do lead to better long-term outcomes. And you're tying these things into one place. Well, if we're gonna do that, my suggestion.

‍

is that we make it very clear that there's two different sides to what's going on. It should be extremely clear, hey, you're going into the side of this platform that's designed for you to lose money versus

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Siara Joy (30:47)

Yeah.

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Keith D (30:47)

being on this side of the platform that's designed for you to make it over the long term.

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Siara Joy (30:51)

Like every

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Keith D (30:51)

That would be my suggestion

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from a regulatory perspective.

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Siara Joy (30:54)

Like almost how they have regulations around tobacco and advertising and there's warning labels. Like I almost feel like the warning label should basically say, like, you're likely gonna lose money.

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Keith D (31:05)

Yeah, you're likely gonna lose

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money. You might end up in massive amounts of debt, and working years and years just to pay that off without being able to actually use this other side of the platform, which is designed for you to make money.

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Siara Joy (31:15)

Right.

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Keith D (31:16)

So to expand on that a little bit further, when you go into debt, okay, the prudent thing to do financially, the financially literate thing to do, if you have high credit card debt, right? High APR credit card debt is to pay that debt off before you start investing. Because

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Siara Joy (31:34)

Mm-hmm.

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Keith D (31:35)

if you start investing, you might earn 8% per year, but your debt's compounding at 20% a year.

‍

So you're never going to outpace that by investing. So you're supposed to pay this down first. So if I'm going onto this platform and I'm gambling whatever I have in my savings away, now I I end up going into debt in some sort of a way to then continue to gamble. Then now I'm in a position where I actually am unlikely to ever get back to this investing thing.

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Siara Joy (32:00)

Can you quantify the problem for us in terms of 'cause there's gotta be a difference between having a habit of online gambling or like it just being like a yeah, it's something I do sometimes and an addiction. So I guess first can we somehow define the difference and when it becomes a critical issue? And then like how big is this problem? Let's we can keep it even just to the US. Like what is gambling addiction?

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Keith D (32:24)

Yes.

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Siara Joy (32:25)

Zoomed out in in this country.

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Keith D (32:27)

Yes. So there's data around this idea that there's like what, twenty million people or something like that that have some sort of a gambling problem. in the United States I think it is, or maybe that's globally actually.

‍

There's there's a difference between having a problem versus betting regularly, even, right? So someone can actually be someone who bets all the time or let's say every week. And they don't necessarily have a problem because what it really comes down to is your relationship with the phenomena, right? And that goes for pretty much anything, right? It could be caffeine. Is it that when you wake up and you don't have caffeine?

‍

your day is messed up, you're unhappy, you're lashing out at people, you're not as productive as you normally would be, right? Then that could be something that

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Siara Joy (33:17)

Yeah.

‍

Keith D (33:18)

is a dependency, right? and it's a very similar thing with gambling. And and then also, right, so let's bring it back to caffeine because a lot of people have this. Is this something that's leading to where you can't pay your rent at the end of the month? Is this something where you're

‍

Drinking so much coffee, such high quality coffee, that it's eating into your ability to have regular groceries, right? That's when you might say, okay, maybe there's something that I need to think about here that that could be problematic. And it's the same thing with gambling. If you're doing things that are putting you in a worse financial situation where you're not able to take care of your basic needs, if you are even just doing things that are psychologically not healthy for you. So

‍

You're spending time on a gambling app, and then you walk away from that, and your day is now worse. You're now upset with yourself. Right?

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Siara Joy (34:05)

Yes. Mm-hmm.

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Keith D (34:09)

That's when you can start to identify that there may be a problem. And there's clinical examples of this, but I think the most powerful thing is really like, is this having a negative impact on your life and yet you continue to do it?

‍

I think that's kind of when you can say, Okay, there may be a problem.

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Siara Joy (34:28)

Yeah. And if I could add because everyone has a budget and everyone wants to spend the amount of money differently and everyone has their different priorities. So I wonder if anyone ever thinks about it in terms of this is what's important to me in my life and maybe I have lots of money to spend and maybe I don't let it get past a certain point. But am I spending time and money on something that is not

‍

actually aligned with my values? Like am I actually losing out budget for something I could have spent doing something I care about more, like traveling or helping a loved one or, you know, really anything. I I just imagine it doesn't always have to look like a dire

‍

I can't pay my rent situation. It might be that you're meeting your basic needs, but there are parts of your life that are missing out because you've allotted so much time and money and maybe even like you said emotion to to this habit. So yeah, it's kind of sad in a way.

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Keith D (35:26)

That's a really, really solid point because this is another problem that we're gonna continue to think about solving is like when it comes to this concept of an addiction, do you start to move the goalpost? Right? That's another thing. When people say that they're gonna stop, they're like, I won't place another bet on this series of matches.

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And then it's like, well, look, you know, my favorite players in the game, he just came off an injury, like he's for sure gonna win. Like, I'll bet on just this one game. And in general, you know, just whenever that goalpost starts moving, whether that's the amount of money that you're spending, or if it's how often you're gambling, or how often you're participating, once again, this is with any activity, right? And this is the beauty of being able to talk about this because this addiction piece is not unlimited.

‍

To gambling, right? but once you start moving that goalpost, that's when you might have to think about okay, wait a minute. am I prioritizing the things that I said I would? As an example that you were giving. and if that's what's happening, then yeah, absolutely. You can be looking at that and say, Look, you might not have clinical gambling disorder, which is fine, but is this having a negative impact on your life? Worth investigating.

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Siara Joy (36:40)

Do you think are you a sports person yourself? Do you enjoy just in watching sports?

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Keith D (36:45)

I I honestly don't.

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Siara Joy (36:46)

Okay. Okay, well

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I guess how how do I put this? I I live in a city where sports is very important. This is a priority in the city that I live in. so I'm around a lot of like people enjoying sports. I I will watch the occasional game for sure. And what I've noticed is people getting pretty upset over the outcome. It's usually just did our home

‍

team win or lose. But I have seen moments where I've seen like grown adults, sometimes like, you grown men, not that there's anything wrong with crying as a grown man, but I've seen this happen over like a a loss or just a moment in a game.

‍

It didn't occur to me until I was reviewing the stats of online gambling to prepare for this conversation with you that these people might be having emotional reactions over losses. And I live in a pretty big like a big enough city where, you know, if eight percent of Americans are struggling with online gambling, it's not out of the realm of possibility that this is what they're reacting to. And that just like

‍

gave me chills because I was just kind of seeing it as like, wow, people are so passionate about sports, like it's almost cute in a way. but then I was like, well, if this is you know, if this is about a loss that is gonna impact your life in that way, it's that's tragic. And so I I definitely wanna talk about the emotions and how this leads to people really getting in a bad place mentally. But I'm just curious if you think also that this actually impacts

‍

people's relationship with sports, and the joy that they get from sports, because that's also that's also tragic in a way I know people have these deep emotional relationships with certain teams, but I imagine this getting really warped and and sort of just really changing the dynamic I guess for them when they watch a game.

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Keith D (38:29)

100%, Siara that what you've seen has 100% been a part of that phenomenon, the gambling phenomenon. It took

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Siara Joy (38:39)

Mm.

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Keith D (38:40)

me a very long time to recognize this too. It wasn't until maybe I I was very much so an adult when I realized, like, the real reason that these people care so much is because they have money on the line. And

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Siara Joy (38:53)

Yeah.

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Keith D (38:54)

they might not be able to articulate that or tell you that or acknowledge that.

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But it plays a massive role in the level of cheer that you're seeing. Especially, so I'm someone who this is anecdotal here. I travel a little bit. When you go to places like Europe, the UK is an exception because they have incredibly big time gambling culture there, same in Australia. But let's say Italy, not that it's not there, but there's a certain passion.

‍

That comes with football being soccer, that's a little bit different than we have for football in the way that we do and stuff like that in the United States. And just in general, culturally, the United States is very much so a culture about money. There's a lot of that in baked into our culture. And this normalization of attaching that to your activities, such as watching a football game.

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Crazy about that. UK, Australia have this as well. But so point being, that passion that we're seeing, and I'm I'm just picturing like Philadelphia Eagles, like New York Knicks, once again, these places where it's like very normal to gamble. And that ends up being the thing that's actually leading these emotions that these people are having throughout these experiences. And once again.

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There's a lot pride that people have in the place that they're from and so on. But you're right, this is totally getting mixed in. and to see a grown man cry about a football match or a basketball game,

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Not that that's not possible and there's plenty of grown men who will cry about just the fact that their team lost. But a lot of the times it's a lot deeper than that. And I I couldn't give you a bunch of data to back it up, but there was a moment where it hit me as well, where I was like, that's what's really going on.

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Siara Joy (40:43)

To go in a darker direction. I'm told there's a correlation with online gambling and people who decide to take their lives. Is this can you confirm this with any data or any experience or information that you have about it?

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Keith D (40:56)

Yeah, I mean the yeah,

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th there are studies that say anywhere from one in six to as high as two out of every five people who have a gambling problem, like a severe gambling problem, will make an attempt at their own life.

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And now when we look at the amount of people, right, who have a gambling addiction. You know, this is in the tens of millions of people around the world. some people, some stat stats say that there's over a hundred million people who are affected by gambling to some degree. if you're talking about two out of every five people with a problem making an attempt at their lives, that that's a lot of people that are at risk.

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And the thing that's even more concerning is once again what percentage of the population is betting, period. Right, because that's increasing.

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Siara Joy (41:56)

Yeah.

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Keith D (41:57)

And so eventually that's going to show up at that latter stat of people making these attempts at themselves. And I haven't spent a ton of time with clinicians talking about this. but part of what I think is happening is people are isolating. so there's two kind of major personas when it comes to the gambling thing. You've got the sports gambler who a lot of the times is with their friends. Now

‍

This can create a specific kind of loneliness because you're with your friends, but you have an actual problem. And if you try to tell your friends, they might laugh at you or like think that you're tripping, or in general, it creates distance between your friendships now and for you to quit. You might feel like you can't be a part of that group

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Siara Joy (42:46)

Yeah.

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Keith D (42:48)

anymore.

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So that's that's where the sports gambling thing I think is a really tough one because you've now gotta admit to your friends that you have a problem. We already know that men in the United States already have a problem with admitting that they have problems. You know what I'm saying? Whatever it may be. We're not trained to communicate in that way.

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And then you got the other side, which is someone who's doing online casinos kind of a thing, online slots.

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things of that nature. And it's a little bit of a different relationship, because this person will completely isolate themselves a lot of times. and it's something that's kind of easy to isolate yourself doing. Why? Because now it's on your phone. So the common story that I'll hear is someone's on their phone at work.

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They'll go to the bathroom, they'll sit on the toilet and spin. Right? And spin and spin and spin until they reach some conclusion. They run out of money literally, or have to make another deposit or whatever it may be. Then they'll go back to their desk and then continue their day, knowing that they probably just did something that hurt them a lot. And now they're at work trying to figure this out

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In general, right? This is someone who they don't want to tell anybody that they're not telling their spouse, they're not telling anyone what's going on. And both of these personas have usually not the ability to tell anyone about the problem, right? But for this person, people might not even know that they're gambling at all. They might not even have a clue. Right. And so that's super scary and dangerous. And this is something about a gambling addiction in general that's kind of unique compared to other addictions. if I see you with your Starbucks every day, I can like

‍

question that. If you're smoking, I can smell that. If you're

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Siara Joy (44:34)

Mm.

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Keith D (44:34)

drinking, I can see the impact that it's having on you. But with a gambling addiction, you really can't. Right? And so that's something that's very, very, very dangerous about it all. once again like

‍

If I'm not having to go to a casino as well, right? I don't even have to make the conscious decision so much to go and gamble, or I don't have to think, I need to only set this amount of money aside to go and do this, because I can just whip out my phone and just do it. And that's the other thing about a gambling addiction that's tough, is that with alcohol, I can only drink so much, right? Before I'm impaired.

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That's not the case with gambling. You can take your entire life savings and dump it into an app and lose it in five minutes.

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Siara Joy (45:21)

Ugh yeah. I had never thought about it that way.

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Keith D (45:25)

So once again, another reason why this is something that's I'm so passionate about, because this is not it's not being advertised, it's not being talked about at the level of danger that it can really put people in. and when we're already dealing with people who aren't feeling like they're doing well financially, people are not able to really get ahead very easily and they know it, this ends up looking like

‍

the perfect solution, or at least a way to run away from that reality. And it's the worst time to go to a platform like

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Siara Joy (45:59)

Do you think online gambling habits get worse in a bad economy?

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Keith D (46:04)

I don't know that there's data that fully supports that. There have been instances where you've seen this. I think Iceland did a study where there was a a a more severe sort of economic recession and they saw an increase in the amount of lotteries. the increased amount of people playing their local lottery, their state lotteries and things of that nature. and so there there have been some studies of there being a level of correlation between these things.

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What we're seeing right now, and particularly in the United States, is young people falling into this category of what has been called financial nihilism. And so financial nihilism is people saying basically the traditional path to building wealth and making money is not working. And therefore, I need to do something to try and accelerate that path or to cheat or find a way around that.

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Siara Joy (46:52)

Mm-hmm.

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Keith D (46:52)

And in particular, Northwestern Mutual put out a study at the beginning of this year.

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That said, basically young people in particular are gambling. It says 73% of people who are this is actually US adults, three quarters of US adults who are drawn to high risk assets say that it's because they feel financially behind.

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And so they're using crypto and gambling platforms, prediction markets as well, as a way to find a faster path to their financial goals than using traditional methods. And when it comes to Gen Z in particular, that number is not 73%. It's 80% of the people who are moving into these platforms.

‍

Are saying it's because they are financially behind. and so that's wild when you look at the data here as well. It says that nearly a third of Gen Z adults are already invested in or are considering putting money into crypto and sports betting this year, which is a higher rate than any other generation.

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and you know, there's economic realities when it comes to homeownership. That's looking further and further away from being a reality for young people. Retirement also further and further away from being a reality for people. I saw a stat that said like fifty percent of US adults under the age of thirty are staying at home with their parents. that's a reality.

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Siara Joy (48:17)

Yeah. Do you think so this might be a silly question. Can you bet using credit? I I assume absolutely. I wonder if people ever take you know, if they ever borrow money to to bet.

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Keith D (48:29)

That's a that's

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a fantastic question. some states have laws against being able to use credit cards, right, to be able to gamble in casinos as well, once again, right? So this is where the regulations haven't necessarily caught up to the situation because we're talking about online platforms for one, and then we're talking about these prediction markets, which are being disguised as financial platforms and are being regulated.

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As financial platforms. then the question is: well, can you use a credit card to buy stocks? You know what I mean? And in some cases you can, some cases you can't. Now,

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Siara Joy (49:03)

Mm-hmm.

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Keith D (49:04)

for sure, people are using credit. Even some places, some casinos will allow you to get credit at the casino. So 100%. That should totally be illegal.

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Siara Joy (49:13)

That feels like that should be illegal. Like full stop. I feel like

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that's an easy, like, let's not do that. Wow.

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Keith D (49:21)

Yeah. so yeah, I mean, unfortunately, that's a big part of what happens. and once again, now that we're talking about this, it's like so people can do this thing called self-exclusion, both virtually and in real casinos, where you say, Hey, I need you to ban me from this place. Right?

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Siara Joy (49:38)

Yeah.

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Keith D (49:38)

And then they're required to keep you out. These online platforms.

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They're not doing a great job with that, is what I'm hearing. Okay. Like, you self-excluded, but then you can just come back, or you can just set up a new account with a new email and you're in there again. and just in general, right? Like there's just not enough safeguards to prevent people from doing massive amounts of harm. there's a whole philosophical debate to have on that.

‍

All of that. But but back to the idea of people pay taking out loans to do this. It doesn't have to be a credit card. It could also be a legitimate loan. It could be a loan that you take out for your business and then you take that money and you pull it over here. It could be money that you borrow from friends and family, which is actually something that happens very often.

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Siara Joy (50:19)

Yeah, I'm sure it does.

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Keith D (50:21)

If you're

‍

watching this, I had this light bulb moment yesterday. If you're watching this and you have a friend who's constantly asking you for money.

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I want you to figure out if that person is gambling.

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Siara Joy (50:37)

How can they Because that was one of my questions too, is like if someone listening thinks that their partner or maybe their parent or even a friend, which it feels like friends are actually a great person to see when that's actually happening, since this seems to be such a social activity at times, but what are signs that someone is dealing with an online gambling problem?

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Keith D (51:02)

The different circumstances can make it difficult. if, for instance, you have no idea whether or not this person is gambling or not, is a very different situation than you're trying to figure out if they have a problem, right?

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Siara Joy (51:14)

Right. Right.

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Keith D (51:17)

if you're trying to figure out if they have a problem in particular, there's a few things that can give you some ideas. one of them is if there's any way for you to tell that.

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Their bet sizes have been increasing. Right. Are they putting more and more down on the line than they have before? that's a sign that they are essentially using this as a way to just like you build a tolerance for nicotine or alcohol or whatever, you build a tolerance for how much money being on the line is exciting to you anymore. So that's

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Siara Joy (51:47)

Mm-hmm.

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Keith D (51:48)

one thing that you can that might be more subtle and harder to really see, but it's one thing.

‍

Another thing is just if you're noticing massive mood swings, right? And this can be something where you don't know if they're gambling or not. because it's like, hmm, like you're pretty off today. Like, what's going on? You know, maybe it's they didn't eat, you know, some pip some people get hangry. If it's not that, you know what I'm saying? Then you can kind of work down the line and think, hmm, could this be something that is going on in in their life and they're not telling me about it? It's possible.

‍

other things is like if you're with your friends and you guys are gambling together, is your friend chasing losses? So immediately after they lose, are they then immediately going to place another bet? Right? That's a sign that someone is dealing with some sort of an addiction to the activity. there's a whole psychological phenomenon there called loss aversion and things of that nature where

‍

losses hurt twice as much as a win feels good. And because of that, when you lose, you're more likely to try to do something to get rid of that discomfort of the loss.

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Siara Joy (52:56)

Mm.

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Keith D (52:57)

And so if you're in a session in a game, whatever it is, and you've lost a bet, you're more likely to try to find a way to not have to realize that loss, right? To not have to walk away and say, that that's real now. Right. So you'll place more and more bets, and unfortunately, that can lead to worse and worse losses. And that's another sign, once again, this that someone might have an actual problem. if it's you in particular that's gambling.

‍

Are there times where you get done gambling and you sit back and you ask yourself, snap, like why did I do that? What was the rationale behind me doing what I just did?

‍

If that's missing and you find yourself constantly doing that.

‍

unfortunately, that's a sign of a massive problem. And then finally, one that comes to my head is

‍

You're trying to stop and you haven't been able to. Right? That's another sign.

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Siara Joy (53:53)

Okay, positives.

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Siara Joy (53:55)

I would love to talk more about how you see recovery going for people who are struggling with an online gambling addiction. And you did found No Dice app. So I'm wondering what led you to build that app and just how it works.

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Keith D (54:13)

So the thing about this gambling phenomenon that's taking place is it's all over the place. It's in your favorite sports matches, it's on TV. I even was in Toronto with my co-founder and we walked past a barber shop that just had fan duel plastered all over it. And I was like, oof, that's really tough. And in general, we just saw that this was gonna continue to become more and more and more of an issue.

‍

And so we designed this app, No Dice, as a place for people to be able to first off have somewhere where they can go to block the apps that are on their phone and also to replace the behaviors that they have around gambling with other things that may be more helpful for them. So there's a few things that people are going through when they're trying to get rid of any addiction. And this app is built for really any addiction, but we are owning the gambling problem.

‍

One of the things is that when you take away one behavior, your brain still is looking for the dopamine. It needs to get it somewhere. And so we understand that. And so we give different places for you to get that dopamine that will actually lead to more positive habit loops versus negative habit loops. there's a really good book around building habits. It's very popular. It's called Atomic Habits by James Clear. And there's four different parts of the habit loop. You have one.

‍

A cue, something cues you in to making you want to do whatever behavior, good or bad. You have the craving, which is then the feeling that you get after seeing the cue. And then you have the response that occurs, which is the thing that you actually do as a response to the cue. And then there is the reward, which is the thing that you get back for doing it. And so this app is essentially designed around that habit loop to make bad habits.

‍

basically invisible is the thing that James Clear talks about, like making something that you can't see or that you can't do, which in this case you blocked the apps on your phone or deleted them. And then the second thing is that craving, right? So that craving piece of it is like once again, this this like itch to do something. This app prevents you from doing that. If you want to go in and block one of the apps, it actually is gonna ask you, hey, are you sure that you really, really want to do this? because it basically it gives you a minute.

‍

To cool down, really consider. It's a voice saying, Hey, like, is this really what you want to do? Think about what impact this is gonna have on your life when you make this decision to unblock any app that's on your phone. And then we also have a 45-day challenge that's within the app that's meant to help you completely rewire your gambling habit, if that's the thing that you're dealing with, or any other habits as well. And the 45-day challenge allows you to do different things that people who are dealing with a gambling condition are dealing with, for instance, like isolation.

‍

A lot of times people are isolating themselves. And so within the app, we have one part of the daily challenges is going to be reaching out to someone. It could be reaching out to someone that you know, it could be giving five compliments to strangers, it could be saying hello to five people, things that seem really hard. But when you do them, it actually completely reverses your relationship with doing that thing because you realize, this is actually really good. This is giving me positive dopamine. This is helping me build.

‍

A network of people who also care about me or who I can talk to when I have something that's going wrong. another piece is a mindfulness piece. So every single day of the 45-day challenge is called No Dice 45, you'll have a mindfulness piece. It could be writing in a journal. It could be meditating for 10 minutes, or it could be doing some breath work. I actually just got off of a call with someone who just got off of an an addiction to

‍

binge eating and substances and he said the biggest thing that actually helped him was having a journal that he was going back to and looking at the things that he was saying throughout the time and how he was capable of getting out of the addiction that he was dealing with and how much better he could see on paper that he felt at the time. So we built these kinds of things into the app to make it a little bit easier. And I'll give you a quick demonstration of what the 45 day challenge looks like. So I'm on my phone here. I'm gonna open the No Dice app.

‍

I'm on day fifteen of No Dice forty five and I'm gonna pull my challenges for the day.

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So a little bit of a mechanism built in to be familiar for someone who is dealing with slot machines for an example. So now I've got to look at my challenges for the day. So I've got to give five strangers a compliment. I've got to meditate for 10 minutes. I get to watch 30 minutes of an educational YouTube video or podcast, exercise for 45 minutes. Once again, replacing the dopamine with something that's good for you, and then no gambling for the day. So I'll go ahead and knock this one out because I know I won't be gambling today. And then the rest of these I'll be working in.

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Throughout

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my day. And so that's one of the main mechanisms of the app. We also have another side of the app that allows you to basically have these same types of challenges, but you earn screen time back. So once again, we're doing gambling, but we're also working on people who have an addiction to social media or any other sort of an app that's on their phone. And so you can actually go in and very soon we'll have it to where you can create your own challenges and do whatever it is that you want to then unlock more screen time that you can then spend on these apps throughout the day.

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So so in general, No Dice is an app that is specifically we're going after the gambling problem because we know that this is a big thing, it's going to continue to grow. And we're building in these different ways for the No Dice 45 challenge to get people to replace that habit with something that's beneficial to them. But then also on the screen time thing, it's a matter of just getting back in control of how you're using your phone and making sure that you're not endlessly scrolling and doing things that you know are not leading you to the outcomes that you want.

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Siara Joy (59:47)

do you have any favorite stories for people who've used the app?

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Keith D (59:52)

well, we have one user who's super awesome already, Dings for Dimes. she's been using this, she's based out of the United Kingdom, and you can tell that this has led to her having a lot of really cool friendships and and just like cool interactions that she's having with people because of the reaching out to people aspect of it all. And she's been a lot of fun to follow. It's highly recommend following her at dings for dimes on Instagram. she's been doing a really cool job with all of that.

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but yeah, we're still super early. So we're excited to get more people using the app and getting these success stories because I mean that's one of the things about this that will be the most fulfilling for sure is like watching people actually transform as they go through the process.

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Siara Joy (1:00:31)

That's really cool. do you have any hopes and wishes for what No Dice will grow into and maybe even what this landscape could look like in say three years if more people join the movement?

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Keith D (1:00:44)

Totally. once again, like the most exciting thing is the community and the actual impact that we believe that this is gonna have. there's just too many forces that are against people right now in terms of the gambling platforms, the social media platforms all literally have business models that are designed to keep you hooked, right? And

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This will serve as a counter movement to all of that. And I do think that that's the thing that we're doing that's unique, is that we're really trying to build a community around this. it's not just an app, right? This isn't just a 45 day challenge. Like this is people coming together, sharing stories about how discipline or devotion even is changing their lives and putting them in a better position to

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Just be happy and enjoy the time that we have here on the planet. So that so that's the thing that I think I'm the most excited about. And I think in three years, for sure this will be something that stands for this is the movement that was birthed out of going out against what is also just as massive as as FanDuel. You know what I'm saying? And and really sitting in that spot of like you when you think of FanDuel, you think of no dice.

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Siara Joy (1:01:46)

Good. Yes, I love that. Because it's such a powerful advertising mechanism. Just the ecosystem of all these apps. I'm seeing cal she's I think targeting me. Simply maybe because I'm a woman and they seem to be going after the demographics that online gambling hasn't maybe as successfully captured. And so I I really hope to see more of your movement than the others. but also I'm just curious

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If you have any words to maybe the stigma. what I'm learning and what I've learned talking to you, and just looking into this space, is that this is a gigantic problem, but it feels like maybe a lot of the victims of this issue feel isolated and maybe shame around the issue that they're having, even though a lot of people are struggling with it. So I'm just curious if you have anything to share with anyone who might.

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feeling like this is so terrible that I'm in this and maybe this is embarrassing when in reality this is almost not typical but common and it's not something that can't be talked about with people.

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Keith D (1:02:46)

One hundred percent. major thing is we're building spaces for you to come and talk about it. Right. So check us out at No Dice, both on Instagram, no dice dot app, but also download the app, get involved. There will be a community section where you can come and chat and actually have conversations about this as you're going through it. I think that's the biggest thing is like you're not alone. And it's gonna come down to finding spaces where you can see that and understand that.

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Because it it is a really big deal and it's continuing to grow. There's gonna be more people, unfortunately, but it it does mean that you can have community around this. When you can't talk to your friends, you can't talk to your parents, we're creating space for you to be able to do this. Yeah, I I mean I think it's the biggest thing is I worry the most about the person who's just isolated because you start to get to where you can say things to yourself that no one can check, right?

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And that's where we want to try to serve as a as an interruption to hey, like before you go too far down this angle of like you're a bad person or there's something wrong with

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Siara Joy (1:03:47)

Yeah.

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Keith D (1:03:48)

you, right? Because it it's not the case, There's chemicals in your brain that are being manipulated, right, to do the things that you're doing. And we have to take steps, physical steps.

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To

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get you out of the situation that you're in. and so that's that's kind of the main thing that I'd want people to know is that you're not alone. there is a way out. And it does start with you making the decision to do things that are gonna get you out of the situation. There's just so many forces that are already acting against you. So we've built tools and spaces to be able to fight back against that.

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Siara Joy (1:04:17)

Yeah, what I what I always say is that the engineers behind these addictive products know exactly how your brain is supposed to work. You're a human being. Your brain's doing what it's supposed to do and what they're doing is taking advantage. So maybe it's nice to have some sort of common enemy and just say like, hey, you're fighting against someone who's almost doing this to you and it can be motivating to feel like I'm gonna overcome something that someone has, inserted into my life, but I can find my way out. So

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That's really inspiring. so how can we learn more about you and no dice? Where can we find you?

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Keith D (1:04:51)

I am on Instagram at Keith D Media. you can also find me on YouTube at Keith D over there. I kind of just talk more about finance, economics, long term crypto macroeconomics and things of that nature. and yeah, I'm on Facebook as well at at Keith D and we're on Twitter, Keith D and no dice.app on pretty much everything as well.

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Siara Joy (1:05:13)

Awesome. and then I always ask every guest this, so it's up to you how you interpret it. But what is one thing that you are logging out of this year and then one thing you're logging

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Keith D (1:05:23)

I love that.

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I think I've already begun the process of logging out of any sort of doubt that is creeping into my mind. And that's been really helpful to practice meditation and other mindfulness practices to notice when those things are happening. I'm logging out of sitting in, like, what if this doesn't work? And I'm logging into like finding that way to make it work, whatever that may be.

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Siara Joy (1:05:47)

I love to hear that. Well, thank you so much for joining us.

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Keith D (1:05:50)

I appreciate you.

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Thanks, Siara

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Siara (1:06:26)

If you're struggling with gambling addiction, you're not alone. Help is available and confidential. Call or text the National Problem

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Gambling Helpline at 1-800-522-4700, available 24-7, or visit ncpgambling.org to find support in your state. If you're in crisis or having thoughts of suicide, call or text 988-to reach the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.

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